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If Capablanca played Carlsen for the world champion match, who would win?

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Elubas

No one is blaming players of the past for not having as much information available to them.

Optimissed

Smyslovfan's post about Capablanca's blunders is starting to make me worry. I'm glad we've had this discussion. That Qf1 was apalling.

SmyslovFan

Stavros, this isn't boxing. In chess, you can actually see the complete move list of every game and compare like to like. Back when Kasparov and Karpov were playing for the world championships, Tal, Spassky, Petrosian, and other former world champions were all analysing the games live! There's no comparison to other sports that is like chess. It's almost as if great hitters could measure themselves up to the best fastballers of the past and see if they could hit them. 

IronedSandwich

Carlsen has more  resources at his disposal.

Radical_Drift
GreedyPawnEater wrote:
chessman1504 wrote:

SmyslovFan wrote:

Fischer once said that if Capa studied 200 Rook endgames, he studied the wrong ones. Even in Fischer's day, Capa's technique was no longer as good as the world's best. 

Since then, technique has become even more impressive! I have an IM friend who said that most of today's +2500 rated IMs have Smyslov's endgame technique, which was the best in the world in the 1950s. 

In this thread, every one of Carlsen's losses are magnified and every mistake made by Capablanca is ignored or explained away. 

Here are some of Capa's losses:

 

And here's another. These are not against the best players in the world at the time. 

 

And here's one where he gets systematically outplayed.

 

 

Well, I at least never tried to magnify Carlsen's mistakes: I'm just acknowledging that they exist. Some people don't seem to believe this. As far as your IM friend's comment, that seems to be a bit much, especially with extensive adjournment analysis. I would think accurate end games are harder to play without adjournments.

Smyslov is by far the best endgame player ever...Nobody can come even close. Even Carlsen is a patzer compared to Smyslov's endgame technique

And that comment also seems to be a bit much! (to me, at least). Carlsen seems to be no one's patzer in the ending... I think there's enough evidence to back up Carlsen's dominant endgame presence in today's game and in chess history as a whole :)

SmyslovFan

Of all today's elite players, Carlsen relies on engines the least. He is so far ahead of the rest of the field that he can play indifferent openings and still expect to win. His advantage is similar to the invincibility Capa thought he had, or Fischer at his very best. Fischer himself often got into trouble in the openings, even during his famous run to the title, but he managed to outplay his opponents from even and some slightly worse positions. 

Carlsen is like that today, only his opponents have learned from the previous world champions. Sure, the best GMs are standing on the shoulders of giants. But they're pretty special themselves. And Carlsen dominates them. 

In fifty years, if you're still alive, you will remember with fondness how great Carlsen was in 2015.

Historians know that the "golden age", no matter when in the past it was, is never as beautiful as those who remember it claim. We're living at the time of the best chess players in history. Enjoy the moment!

SmyslovFan

Well, Kasparov disagrees with you, but what does he know?

TheOldReb

Karpov may be the last WC that didnt rely heavily on computers , Kasparov maybe the first that did ... 

yureesystem

In my chess club there was a little revolt, the experts did not want to play against lower rated players and wanted it exclusive to experts and masters: I was against this because a mark of strong player is the ability to beat a low rated player. Today top ten players there is exclusive club and they play against each other over and over and the risk of losing a lot rating points is eliminated. It is proven when you force this elite players to play against low rated grandmasters ( 2500-2600 elo); two things happen their rating drop or they start play real chess, there is no short draws. That is why there is rating inflation the top ten players don't mind drawing and play passive opening and defense (Carlsen the king of passive opening and defense) and that is why there is low winning ratio in their games.  Ivanchuk vs. Carlsen game was a boring and a quick draw, typical Carlsen no risk and hope my opponent makes a mistake to win.

TheronG12
yureesystem wrote:

In my chess club there was a little revolt, the experts did not want to play against lower rated players and wanted it exclusive to experts and masters: I was against this because a mark of strong player is the ability to beat a low rated player. Today top ten players there is exclusive club and they play against each other over and over and the risk of losing a lot rating points is eliminated. It is prove when you force this elite players to play against low rated grandmasters ( 2500-2600 elo); two things happen their rating drop or they start play real chess, there is no short draws. That is why there is rating inflation the top ten players don't mind drawing and play passive opening and defense (Carlsen the king of passive opening and defense) and that is there is low winning ratio.  Ivanchuk vs. Carlsen game was a boring and a quick draw, typical Carlsen no risk and hope my opponent makes a mistake to win.

The top 10 can't increase their ratings just by playing each other. Rating inflation is caused by an increase in the number of rated players, not by top players avoiding weaker players.

yureesystem

Theron wrote: The top 10 can't increase their ratings just by playing each other. Rating inflation is caused by an increase in the number of rated players, not by top players avoiding weaker players.  

 

 

 Ivanchuk is prove once a mid-2700 player and now a 2700 player. Ivanchuk is still a great player: In TataSteel Ivanchuk drew the Carlsen and was defeated by So, he demonstrate he can still play chess against the top elites; his score is really impressive in TataSteel 3 wins, 1 lose and 9 draws.

SmyslovFan

Ivanchuk loses too many games while on Planet Chuky. His rating is a reflection of his flakiness, and his genius.

yureesystem

Anand is number two and Curuana and Aronian being a lot younger cannot hold second place. Maybe Anand chess understanding is a lot deeper than Curuana and Aronian. If chess has advance so much the younger generation should be dominating but Anand is able to beat the younger players and become a challenger instead of Aronian and Curuana.

SmyslovFan

Yuree, stop bashing today's players and start studying them.

A couple months ago you claimed you were making a push to become a master. Since ratings are so inflated now, this should be easy for you.

I suggest you take a look at how elite players have changed the game though. You may have a hard time maintaining your rating unless you're willing to learn from the best.

SmyslovFan

Did you take a look at the games I posted? Those games deserve to be studied, not relegated to a museum! The top players know their chess history. There was a chess trivia contest held during one of the Norwegian tournaments. It asked players to identify positions from past games and other standard trivia. Magnus Carlsen dominated it! He studies the great games of the past!

imcraig

Bobby Fischer was the greatest chess palyer of all time because he beat 20 grandmasters in a row then beat  Petrosian and Spassky easily.  No other player in the last 100 years had a similar period of domination.  Think about beating 20 grandmasters in a row.  Carlsen couldn't come close to that.

TheronG12
yureesystem wrote:

Theron wrote: The top 10 can't increase their ratings just by playing each other. Rating inflation is caused by an increase in the number of rated players, not by top players avoiding weaker players.  

 

 

 Ivanchuk is prove once a mid-2700 player and now a 2700 player. Ivanchuk is still a great player: In TataSteel Ivanchuk drew the Carlsen and was defeated by So, he demonstrate he can still play chess against the top elites; his score is really impressive in TataSteel 3 wins, 1 lose and 9 draws.

If the top 10 only play each other, they can only change their ratings relative to each other, they can't increase their ratings relative to the rest of the world. They had to beat weaker players to get where they are.

You are correct though that ratings aren't comparable between eras. They only measure your strength relative to the present group of players.

VierKazen89

Yawn....

Quiksilverau

Todays chess is different from pre-engine chess.

Now it is engine-assisted memorization out to move 20-25 (or 50 if you count openings like the berlin).

Todays super GMs have photographic memory, memorizing tens of thousands of positions and consulting engine analysis.

It is clear in 20 years to be a super GM you must have Aspergers and photographic rain man memory. This is not a unique sporting phenomenon. To be olympic swimmer, you require long torso and femur, large hands and semi-webbed feet, all the hard work and dedication won't make up for that. Same as in chess, but with autism spectrum/aspergers and photo memory.

most adults recoil from chess these days and it is becoming a game for genetically 'different' toddlers.

yureesystem

No, chess is not dead. I am glad I am not in the top ten, they have to use chess programs and seconds to compete. Of course if you have no goals chess is dead, I play for the enjoyment and to reach specifics goals in chess.