why? two unconnected similar power computers not connected to internet?
True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides
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SniperGhostWarrior1 wrote:
ESP-918 wrote:
#2060
OK so why then when Stockfish played Alpha Zero , they didn't drew every single game ?
Cause alpha zero is better than stockfish.
Exactly, so where's perfect play then ? How do we know what is perfect play? Because op CLAIMS that perfect play leads to a draw !!! But how do we know what is a perfect play, when we don't have any proof of perfect play yet .
Even with Stockfish hobbled, most of the games were drawn. Every single game that Stockfish lost was due to an identifiable error.
I strongly believe perfect play on both sides makes a draw, but we’ll likely never see chess become solved in our lifetime. So I see no way we can know the answer for certain.
Mr. Spock said that chess is a draw.
SmyslovFan wrote:
Even with Stockfish hobbled, most of the games were drawn. Every single game that Stockfish lost was due to an identifiable error.
So? After Alpha zero comes it even stronger, which means when we thought stockfish vs stockfish played "perfect play" alpha zero proove us wrong, which means if something else cones up better then alpha zero or improved alpha whatever it is it will win more again and no draws , which means that we DON'T FREAKING HAVE A PERFECT PLAY YET !!!!!!!
ponz111 wrote:
GEEZE!!! I did not say i would always make the correct moves!!! You are not reading what i am saying!
I do not need to know perfect play for every game to understand the game of chess is a draw with perfect play!!!!!
But isn't perfect play exactly what someone needs to know before they can understand if chess is a draw or not? When it comes to perfection I would say being 99.99% sure of something is the same as being 00.01% sure of something. Both aren't perfect. It seems to me that since no one, human or machine, has ever seen perfect play it doesn't make sense to say perfect play leads to anything. It's never been done. Since we are all just guessing, I can guess that I'm 99.99% sure with "perfect play" white always wins.
I think BLACK wins, because white is in zugzwang from the very beginning...muoooaaahhhhh
lfPatriotGames wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
GEEZE!!! I did not say i would always make the correct moves!!! You are not reading what i am saying!
I do not need to know perfect play for every game to understand the game of chess is a draw with perfect play!!!!!
But isn't perfect play exactly what someone needs to know before they can understand if chess is a draw or not? When it comes to perfection I would say being 99.99% sure of something is the same as being 00.01% sure of something. Both aren't perfect. It seems to me that since no one, human or machine, has ever seen perfect play it doesn't make sense to say perfect play leads to anything. It's never been done. Since we are all just guessing, I can guess that I'm 99.99% sure with "perfect play" white always wins.
👏👍
Morphysrevenges wrote:
The answer is clearly and literally GOD ONLY KNOWS.
This is essentially the same question as when will chess as a game be solved? meaning, that you can prove empirically that with best play (aka no mistakes) on both sides does white win? or is it a draw? or does black win? (yes, this is possible until we know for sure. maybe having to move first - ala white - is actually a disadvantage in a perfectly played game as black puts white in Zugzwang and wins?)
Seriously, unless a supercomputer could literally play out every single possible move, of every single possible variation and every single length of game, we cannot know.
so refer to my opening sentence.
How does god know? Did he anakyze every possible chess game
False. If absolutely perfect play from both sides, then Black will never be able to regain the initiative of White's inherent advantage of going first. White has an inherent, albeit small, tempo advantage from the outset. Logically perfect play means playing no moves that cede advantage. Ergo, white would have the advantage from start to finish, meaning White wins with perfect play from both sides.
aaronprince wrote:
False. If absolutely perfect play from both sides, then Black will never be able to regain the initiative of White's inherent advantage of going first. White has an inherent, albeit small, tempo advantage from the outset. Logically perfect play means playing no moves that cede advantage. Ergo, white would have the advantage from start to finish, meaning White wins with perfect play from both sides.
It’s one thing to have a slight advantage, but what you are essentially saying is black starts off trapped in a mating net. You’re saying that among the astronomically large combination of possible moves for black, nowhere in there is a single out that forces a draw.
I find that extraordinarily unlikely.
I think that what the people regarded as those who really know and understand Chess game are saying is that Black's previous move before the start of the game leaves him in a position that all he can do is fight to salvage a draw.
camter wrote:
I think that what the people regarded as those who really know and understand Chess game are saying is that Black's previous move before the start of the game leaves him in a position that all he can do is fight to salvage a draw.
??
USArmyParatrooper wrote:
camter wrote:
I think that what the people regarded as those who really know and understand Chess game are saying is that Black's previous move before the start of the game leaves him in a position that all he can do is fight to salvage a draw.
??
Put in all the ?? you like.
It is obvious.
How else did Black get in that mess?
I think if people from both sides play good... I think it is 50% draw 25% white win and 25% black win.
ESP-918 wrote:
...
But isn't perfect play exactly what someone needs to know before they can understand if chess is a draw or not? [NO!]When it comes to perfection I would say being 99.99% sure of something is the same as being 00.01% sure of something. Both aren't perfect. It seems to me that since no one, human or machine, has ever seen perfect play it doesn't make sense to say perfect play leads to anything. It's never been done. Since we are all just guessing, I can guess that I'm 99.99% sure with "perfect play" white always wins.
👏👍
This is a ridiculous position to hold. Chess has a wide margin of error. A player can be up two knights in the endgame and still not be able to force mate.
One doesn't have to play perfectly to draw against a perfect opponent. Chess is clearly a draw, and with a much greater margin of certainty than .01%. But to argue that 99.99% is the same as 0.01% certainty is to not understand the nature of statistics.
Chess is like almost 100% draw where you can do siginifantly mistakes and can still get draw. You need 5+ material advantage than your opponent to win a game.One turn advantage is useless to win an opponent.If there were 32 men TB, i think 3 turn advantages or one pawn odd ( a or h) pawn will still be draw. (many positions of Kvs K+P and K+R+P vs K+R etc are still draw)
drmrboss wrote:
Chess is like almost 100% draw where you can do siginifantly mistakes and can still get draw. You need 5+ material advantage than your opponent to win a game.One turn advantage is useless to win an opponent.If there were 32 men TB, i think 3 turn advantages or one pawn odd ( a or h) pawn will still be draw. (many positions of Kvs K+P and K+R+P vs K+R etc are still draw)
You just don't know how to convert an advantage. 2 pawns (no compensation) is usually enough to win.
Could alpha zero (on one computer) play alpha zero on another?