True or False Chess is a Draw with Best Play from Both Sides

But perhaps you may recall that I pointed out that I was certain you didn't actually believe in the argument that black wins by force and that in my opinion you had adopted that position because it seemed like a good way to get debating practice .... i.e debating a lost cause?
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I do know that I made that suggestion more than once.

You did point out that you were certain of that. But I have never said I'm certain black can win by force. Of course it's possible, but it's not something I would suggest. I used to think it was probably a draw, but now I'm certain it's a forced win for white.

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I wonder if I would have told you that I was sure you were doing something for a particular reason, when you in fact were NOT doing that thing?
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It seems rather unlikely I would have been certain of the reason you were doing something, when you were not actually doing that thing. I imagine at the time you might have pointed out that you were not doing that thing .... and yet I think I can be certain in saying that you didn't point out such a mistake to me.

Incidentally to this discussion, may I ask what you think regarding the bigger picture of the way that time can appear to alter things?
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Isn't it remarkable, that the absence of one participant for less than three months, from these forums, can appear to bring about a reversal of our perceptions of certain pertinent facts, from how they may have appeared to us in one year, to how they seem to appear to us early in the next?
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The Wonders of Creation seem inestimable and endless!

I also remember you saying black wins by force on a few occasions in this thread. You never gave any reasons for that statement so I took it as a jab at those who claimed it was so impossible that it need not be investigated.

My opinion is that chess is most likely inherently a draw, but by no means can that be claimed to be a proven fact.

The two players would have the same skill level so it would be a draw

I said it's possible that black could win, but not likely. The only way black could win, in my opinion, is if they go first. I also said chess could be a draw. But that also is unlikely in my opinion. I never said black has a forced win from the opening position.

Not that it matters, proving white has a win wont happen for at least a couple hundred years.

I agree with you completely.

Before anyone contradicts him I want you to think of it the other way. With perfect play will Black win? No. With perfect play will White win? Probably not.

However, chess is not a solved game. Perfect play especially in long games is extremely difficult, so chess is still fun and tense.

The first move advantage is not very significant. It only controls the way some openings can be played. If we assume that perfect play means that the player is familiar and knows all openings, then Black can respond accordingly and maintain a draw. It will of course be harder for black but with PERFECT play it will be a draw.

I have seen your comments on other threads and they have been reasonable. I hope you take my points into consideration.

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In this context, perfect play means playing moves that don't lose by force. Of course, that assumes that chess is a draw and either side can force a draw from the outset.
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I don't like the use of "perfect play" in that context. I think that "playing good moves" is far clearer and therefore a much better way to describe events. A good move is anything that doesn't lose by force, since it's impossible to produce a move that wins by force from an even position. In English, something that's "good" is "good for its purpose". In this context it is the best descriptor of moves that don't lose.
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In this thread, there's been an awful lot of confusion about the meanings of terms and it pretty much all springs from the terms imposed by games theorists who perhaps were not really up to the job of constructing a firm basis for solving chess. Hence all the arguments.

Who CARES what you believe?? For all I know you might believe that the moon is made of green cheese. If both sides play perfectly, then I BELIEVE that it's a DRAW! (And I don't really care what you believe.)

React to this message with if you think it's a win for White, if you think it's a win for Black, and if you think it's a draw.

I agree with your first sentence. I've seen players and computers force a win with an advantage that is "not very significant". I would say even a far less advantage is all it takes to force a win.

I think of it as compounded interest in your savings account. Or I guess what some people call the butterfly effect. A very small, very insignificant, very miniscule effect. But over time, it grows.

I know some people think the first move advantage fades, and eventually vanishes. But I think the opposite. I think it's like the tiny percentage of interest you earn on your savings account that's compounded. At first, it's basically nothing. Even after a while it's not enough to even bother with. But after a few weeks, a few months, then a few years, the change is noticeable.

Eventually the change is huge. It's undeniable. It becomes overwhelming. Because of the crude and limited power of todays computers this change cannot be noticed. Todays computers are still in their infancy, not even toddlers. But eventually, probably in about 200 years, they will mature a little bit. They will begin to see the significance of small advantages. Like so many of mans achievements, looking back it becomes obvious why it was never discovered. The knowledge, the technology, the wisdom, the building on previous discoveries takes time.

Yes, chess is a forced win for white. But as so many have said here, does it really matter?

Nevertheless, it still has to be an advantage sufficient to force a win and what one person may think is not significant might well be significant to the person who sees the winning process.
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The initial position doesn't consist of a winning advantage to one side. Otherwise, in the millions of games that have been played by humans, such an advantage would have made itself apparent. Even computers can't find it, because it doesn't exist.

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You repeatedly claimed that black, the second player, wins by force. There's no doubt about it and no doubt that you were using it to sharpen your considerable debating skills.
No doubt at all. You can try to alter reality but that's what you repeatedly claimed.

I said it's possible black could win, but I also said it's possible it could be a draw. It's just that neither are as likely as it being a forced win for white. To your point what might have happened is that I said black has a forced win, in response to someone saying it's a draw. The point of that would be to respond to something that's very unlikely with something that is also very unlikely, to show what little sense it makes. If someone were to say the moon is made out of green cheese, I might say it is not, it's made out of white cheese.

I don't ever recall ever saying black has a forced win from the beginning. Unless, of course, black enjoys the first move advantage. (or the context above). I would not ask anyone to quote me where I said black wins by force, because that's too much work to go back and find it. But I'm pretty sure that will never happen anyway, because it's not there.

Hi anyway xx

I enjoy your viewpoints in the politics section by the way.

Oh thanks. We aways thought similarly. With a mind like mine you could have ruled the World!

i read s/w when AZ played stockfish abuncha times AZ won a few games. not sure. does that make chess not a draw ?...for right now ?