Sergey Karjakin: "Online Tournaments Are the Future of Chess"

Interview for the Russian podcast Kak Vy Eto Delaete ("How Do You Do That?")

The source in original Russian: https://ria.ru/20191023/1559758752.html

Natalya Loseva: Playing rapid chess is probably a nervous work?

Sergey Karjakin: Well, on one hand, it's nervous, on the other hand, there's more adrenalin, more emotions. So, there's a good side to rapid chess as well.

So, this is exactly what makes chess a sport?

Yes.

Let's talk about this a bit. Why is chess called a sport, anyway?

When we say that chess is sport, of course, we mean that sometimes, you need to make very quick decisions. When we play blitz, we're usually given 3 minutes per game plus 2 seconds increment per move. You get increment, so that if you have a completely won position, the opponent couldn't play on to flag you. You always have 2 seconds to make a move. And when you have only seconds to make a decision, this is, of course, much closer to sport than to science or art. You have to make immediate decisions; of course, you cannot calculate everything, and so you have to rely on intuition and experience. I love rapid and especially blitz chess.

I've got a stupid association - the Chapayev game. Have you ever played Chapayev?

Yes, I played Chapayev with my great-grandmother in my childhood. (Laughs) 

And how did you fare?

Usually, I won.

Can we say that it was a sort of training for your future blitz games?

Well, when we played checkers with her, you could call that a training. Gradually we transitioned from checkers to chess.

You're in the Guinness Book of Records. What for?

I was 12 years 7 months old when I became the youngest grandmaster in the world. At the moment, in 2002, that was of course a colossal achievement. Now, other people have come very close to this record, but the fact they still can't break it probably says something. My record was ahead of its time, of sorts.

For those who don't know much about chess: how do you become a grandmaster?

Grandmaster is the highest title in chess.

You need to win a certain amount of games, or defeat certain opponents, or what?

It's a gradual process. First of all, you get various norms: 2nd category, 1st category, Candidate Master, International Master... To get all those titles, you need to play in certain tournaments against opponents with certain average ratings.

So, you were playing against adult opponents?

Of course. Since I'm 11, I've stopped playing in youth tournaments and only played against adults.

So, basically, there's no clear divide between youth and adult competitors in chess?

Well, there is a divide. As long as you're below a certain age, you can compete for youth championships of the world, Europe, etc.

It's like in figure skating, where teenagers aren't barred from competing with adults?

Yes. Chess is very democratic. Women can play in men's tournaments, for instance. The only thing that's really forbidden is for men to play in women's tournaments. (Laughs)

How is a professional chess player's life organized? I can understand the life of a hockey player or a figure skater. Training in the gym, training on ice, training camps, healthy eating, discipline, all that. Is your sporting life any different?

It's essentially the same.

You also have healthy eating protocols?

Of course.

Really? Okay, let's start from the beginning. Can you describe your typical day?

My days can be vastly different. For instance, you've invited me for the interview, so I ditched my training for today and came to your studio.

So, you usually have a training schedule?

No. To be honest, when I'm home, I don't have time for training. First of all, I have family, two little children. I also have home chores and civic duties. But when I head to the training camp, there are no distractions, and I can study chess uninterrupted. Not for a whole day, but close to that.

How does a chess player's training camp look?

We study chess, then there's physical training, walking... and that's about all. Walking, physical training, chess training.

So, you get general fitness training?

Of course.

Why?

When you play a game for seven hours, you sit for extended periods of time, and you need to compensate all that. Otherwise, you'd get back problems, you might get fat if you don't move enough, all sorts of stuff really!

Are there many fat chess players?

Among the elite, there are very few. Most of us get fitness training and try to compensate for our sitting lifestyle. So, physical fitness is very, very important for chess players. I understood it when I was a small boy and took up acrobatics as well as chess.

Wow. Did you ever hit your head?

(Laughs) Well, there's another story about hitting my head. I took part in the "Kid's Olympics" at Artek, I was 10 years old. I jumped into a pool head first and hit my head on the bottom. The pain was enormous. But after that, I very quickly rose in chess ranks.

Really?

I don't know whether those two events are connected, but...

Okay, let's discuss another fashionable topic concerning physical fitness. Can you guess what this is?

Hm, fashionable? (Laughs)

Let's talk about doping. First, what kind of legal stimulators you use, and second, are there any formal doping regulations in chess?

There are some things in chess that can stimulate the brain, but overall, doping isn't a huge problem in chess, unlike some other sports. Doping can improve your performance by 5 per cent at most.

So, it's basically useless.

Not totally useless... Is 5% a big or small number? If you can score 5% more points, it may be useful too.

Perhaps these 5% was what you lacked when you played Magnus Carlsen?

Well, during the Carlsen match, I had support from the Russian Chess Federation, and they gave me the best doping there can be.

What was it?

A can of caviar. (Laughs)

Can caviar indeed be used as doping?

Well, I ate caviar during the World Championship. Never after. Every morning, I would get up and eat a spoon of caviar. At the very least, it was aesthetically pleasing.

Speaking seriously, chess has a huge problem in computer assistance. Cheating in this way can guarantee a win 99% of the time.

So, how can you get computer assistance? When you're playing in a big tournament, are you isolated from your coaches and other possible helpers?

Of course, we are isolated. We have a playing zone, which only players and arbiters can enter. On the other hand, with modern technology, it's not especially hard to imagine some kind of a miniature headphone or chip that will allow someone to receive outside help. Thank God, nobody really works on such technology in earnest; nobody got caught, at the very least. The people who did get caught tried to cheat in a much more primitive way: they snuck a phone in and then went to the toilet to use it.

To get computer assistance?

Yes. But they got caught and disqualified.

During the training sessions, do you play against computers?

We use computers as sparring partners, because there's no sense to play them seriously anymore. 15 years ago, you could still defeat a chess engine, but now, you can't win. If you're in a superb form, you can sometimes hope to hold it to a draw in one game of three or four, so it's not interesting anymore. But playing against people is always interesting. Even if your opponent is stronger, it's still more interesting to play against humans.

Look, if there's a possibility to cheat using computers, then some of your opponents might work out a way to get computer help during the games. How can you combat that? Do chess players discuss this problem among themselves?

Yes, the danger is real. Chess players write open letters and blog posts on that topic. I think that anti-cheating measures will become more and more sophisticated with time, but it'll be a process similar to antiviruses and viruses in computers. New viruses constantly appear, and then new antiviruses appear to combat them. The one thing we don't really fear is that some unknown guy appearing and immediately defeating the world champion: such a blatant cheater will be found out immediately. For cheating to be effective, you need a well-known player to cheat. A top-100 player having an especially good tournament wouldn't raise many eyebrows.

They might just say, "I got lucky", or "I'm in good form", or something.

Yes. So, everyone, myself included, should be checked. Everyone should be in equal conditions, like, for instance, everyone should go through metal detectors in airports.

How technology can improve, say, the decision-making speed? Or brain clarity?

Technology has changed many things already. When I said that I became a grandmaster at the age 12, way ahead of my time... When I was starting out, the computers were still quite weak, and so I got most of the necessary information from the books. To find a certain position you wanted to study, you sometimes had to leaf through books and magazines for weeks. And now, you just turn on your chess engine, and in a minute, it shows everything you need for that position: all games... There's about ten million games in the database, a whole lot to study. When I was starting out, we didn't have anything like that.

Does that mean that modern technology can attract more children to chess and increase their skill level?

I think that it means exactly that, and it's already happening. It's not necessary to be born in a country with big chess-playing traditions anymore. You can live wherever you want, study chess on Skype with a coach, use computer databases, there's a whole lot of lectures on YouTube...

Just don't cheat.

Yes. Avoid cheating.

What do you think about the new doping allegations against our country? Can it somehow affect the Chess Olympiads?

I hope this won't affect chess in any way. There was exactly one case of a chess player being disqualified for doping, at least as far as I know. Even then, the reason was very contrived: the player was ill, took some pill...

What kind of doping it was? What it does?

As I said, he was just treating an illness and unknowlingly took some drug that was in the banned substance list. But, you know, the substances that help you grow your muscles or increase your physical stamina is one thing, but in chess, the thing that needs boosting is brainpower, and I think it would be wise for FIDE to create their own list of banned substances.

Is the chess world in general a less scandal-filled place than, say, figure skating, or tennis, or other, more creative sports?

In chess, no matter what we might say, everything is decided over the board. The role of arbiter is minimal - they can't, say, award an unfair penalty, like in soccer. So, if you win, you win, and if you lose, you can be angry as much as you want, but you lose. The result is fair. And in gymnastics, for instance, everything is very subjective, a lot depends on the referees.

What about personal relationships? You remember... well, you can't remember, you're too young, but I was a little girl at the time, and I remember the big conflict between Korchnoi and Karpov. Do tensions of a similar level exist in the modern chess world?

The matches can be very tense. When I played against Carlsen, the match was very tense. First of all, we were playing in New York, and the match began literally two days after the elections - Trump, Clinton, all that. There were demonstrations and such in New York. Then, in the first game, Carlsen chose the Trompowsky Attack, and everyone started guessing whether Carlsen showed his support for Trump, or it was a move against Trump, or was it a joke, or maybe he didn't care about politics at all and just prepared this variant for me. (Laughs) And later, when Carlsen lost a game, he ran away from the press conference and got fined for that conduct... There can be some tensions, but everything will be still decided over the board. So you have to work on your playing a lot.

Let's talk about gender and chess. Is it true that women get some kind of special treatment, and the requirements for women's titles are 100-200 rating points lower?

There are different titles: international grandmaster and women's grandmaster, for instance. Women's grandmaster title is easier to obtain, it has lower norms.

Can you explain why is there such an inequality?

Well, can you explain why women play, statistically, at least, weaker than men? I don't know. I've been playing my whole life, but I don't know.

So, basically, women less often win in similar positions against opponents of similar strength than men?

Yes, this is a fact. But, well, nobody is offended by the fact that men, on average, are physically stronger than women. Speaking of chess, the reason for men being stronger is not that men are smarter than women; chess is a sport where physical traits such as stamina and concentration are very important. So, if a male player wins, it doesn't mean that he is smarter. There's a whole lot of factors in play.

Did you ever lose to women?

Yes, I did. When I played in World Cup 2011, I lost to the legendary Judit Polgar. She won a lot of great games at that World Cup, but, sadly, it was one of her last big tournaments. Just a couple of years later, she retired from chess. Still, I have an overall plus score against her, I lost only one game to her and won several. But still, in an individual game, a woman can totally defeat a man.

Your wife is also a chess player?

Yes, she has first category.

Do you play chess with her?

No, I don't. (Laughs)

Seriously? Why?

Well, there's already more than enough chess at home. We talk about chess a lot, all that.

And what about your children?

My oldest son is four years old.

Is it already time to teach him?

As of now, he knows how the pieces are called, and how to set up the staring position. That's all. After that, he starts playing Chapayev. (Laughs)

Okay, let's talk equality in chess a bit more. Do you have tournaments for persons with disabilities?

Well, there are some, but they aren't held too often.

Why use such distinctions at all? If a chess player has only one leg, or a back injury, it doesn't affect his playing skills in any meaningful way, does it?

Well, on one hand, it really doesn't, but on the other hand, it's clear that the better your physical form, the easier it's for you to sit down and play. In chess, everything is connected. But there are some pleasant exceptions. The Chess Olympiad is held every two years. It features a team of blind players, a team of disabled players, and there's no discrimination, everyone still plays everyone.

You said that it's now not necessary to be born in a "chess country", because globalization and new technologies more or less tore down physical borders for a chess player's development.

Probably not "tore down", but certainly blurred the borders a lot.

My colleagues gave me these numbers. They looked at the FIDE chess player list - it's not that simple to make it to this list, right? You have to achieve some norms...

Yes.

So, they found this: there are 3,293 Russian, 1,140 Ukrainian and 995 Chinese players in that list. These are the three leaders. Why? It doesn't exactly correlate with the population of countries, for instance...

The Soviet chess school's influence is still very strong. Imagine if the Soviet Union still existed, and Russia, Ukraine, Armenia and Azerbaijan - two more leading chess nations - were parts of one country? We would have an enormous player base that would dominate the chess world. Since the split, Russia still has the most rated players, but you should understand... If you look at the younger generation, in the last couple of years, for instance, India produced a huge pleiad of young talents, who became grandmasters at the ages of 12 and 13, almost beating my record. But the record itself isn't important here: I see the potential threat. Now, when they're still 12 and 13 years old, you can still defeat them, but in 5-10 years, if Russia doesn't produce a new young generation too, we'll be gradually pushed aside. I don't say this might happen overnight, but the tendency is clear.

What do we need to do to preserve the leadership of the Russian, formerly Soviet, chess school?

We need to produce young strong players, teach small kids...

There is now some program for teaching chess in basically every school.

You see, the main purpose of the "Chess in School" program is to make chess more popular.

It's like Phys. Ed. lessons in comparison with professional sports?

Exactly. To study chess professionally, you need other programs, and you have to play chess much more often than a couple of days per week. There are, of course, some serious educational efforts, for instance, Sirius kids' camp [in Sochi] has chess groups, but still, you can't really "oversupport" chess. If these programs help us discover even a couple of new talents in our huge country, this would be great.

What can the state (or private sponsors) do for a chess player? Unlike, say, bobsledders or hockey players, you don't need expensive equipment or facilities.

Actually, there's a lot they can do. For instance, cover travelling expenses for a world or European youth championship.

Well, that's not a big sum.

They are usually held in Greece, Spain, countries like that. If you live in poorer regions, where salaries aren't that high, you just can't go to Spain for two weeks, then to Greece for two more weeks on your own. The parents need to travel with their child, they need to pay for food and hotels too... It's not as simple as you think. And working with a coach is even more important. If you don't train constantly, if you don't go to training camps, your chess development may slow to a crawl, and your competitors, from India, for instance, may get ahead.

How long can a chess player remain active?

Recently, the great Vladimir Borisovich Kramnik, sadly, decided to retire from chess. He was about... um... 45 years old. I think that it's not hard to play until you're 35 or 40, but afterwards, it becomes harder.

Your reaction time slows down, you can't think as quickly, stuff like that?

Yes. Such things are easy for the young players, their brains work more quickly. Older players can rely on their vast experience and knowledge to still go toe-to-toe with younger opponents, but overall, chess becomes younger and younger.

When a chess player retires, where else can they use their incredible skills? You can quickly calculate a lot of combinations, remember millions of variations, your reaction is very quick. Can all this be used outside of chess?

Frankly, this depends on the person. Kramnik, for instance, will be met with open arms in any chess school of the world, or he can even open his own schools. He clearly will always have a steady income...

But what about other areas? Who else can hire chess players?

Chess players in general are smart, intellectual people, and I think that they can always find a job, especially if they have some other education.

Finances?

Finances? No problem at all. Politics? Well, Karpov, for instance, works quite successfully in the State Duma...

Well, gymnasts and wrestlers also work in the State Duma, there's a lot of sportsmen there...

Everyone chooses for themselves. I can't say that there's some universal career path for ex-chess players. The most popular, of course, is training children.

Becoming a coach?

Yes, becoming a coach.

Still, I think that it's not fair. I think that chess players have a peculiar array of skills, and big companies should be more interested in hiring them.

By the way, do prize funds allow the players to earn a living, maybe even save some money?

It depends very much on the level. For instance, I played a World Championship match, the prize fund was around 1 million Euro, so obviously I could make some savings. But if we speak about chess players in general, even those in the top 50 of world rating... most of them don't play World Championship matches, don't take part in the strongest tournaments, and it's not easy for them. Of course, they do earn a living, but it's not super big money. Chess isn't tennis, of soccer.

Can you be an active professional player and also have another job?

A full-time job - certainly not. If you have a good financial mind, for instance, you can do some trading...

By the way - yes, you can probably play on the stock market.

Well, I do know some chess players who are also good stock market players.

Have you tried?

A small bit. Nothing too big. I think I even managed to earn some money there, but it all boils down to engagement. If I were to play on the stock market 24 hours a day, I'd probably make good money, but I'd have to quit chess. So, I'm concentrating on chess right now, but later... we shall see.

You're active in Instagram. Do you post things yourself, or is it handled by your team, press officer, whatever?

I mostly post in Instagram myself, even though my wife and my personal assistant sometimes help.

What's the purpose of your Instagram?

I'm using social networks to tell my followers how great it is to play chess, to attract more kids and chess fans...

So, you're basically a chess missionary, or do you earn money from your Instagram too?

I can't say I'm earning a lot of money from Instagram. There were moments when I received advertising offers, especially when I was on the peak of my popularity after the World Championship match, but most of all, my Instagram is a tool for engaging people, a means to tell them something interesting.

Do chess players have obsessive fangirls? The kind who write you letters and such?

(Laughs) Yes. But in my case, when I post photos with my wife and kids every other day, it tends to decrease their number.

We have already touched upon the topic of technologies changing the world. How will it affect chess?

As I already said, computers have brought a lot to chess...

Yes, it's all clear. But, I don't know, will 3D chess variation appear, or VR tournaments, featuring people from all over the world?

I think it's much simpler than that. Online chess is already big. This format develops more and more, and we slowly come to a conclusion that we don't need to fly anywhere and gather in some hall. It's enough just to turn on your computer. The only requirement is to turn on your camera and be present in the picture at all times, so that people would see that it's really you playing, and just play. The prize funds for online tournaments are growing, and I think that they are the future of chess. At least, an important part of it.

Do you play online chess under a nickname?

When I get invited to tournaments, I do. But casually playing online chess every day - it's not my thing, I don't have time for that. I do have fun, I love playing chess online. Moreover, I know some people, millionaires, who sit at some meetings... their subordinates complain that at some moments, they just turn away and start playing chess on their phones.

Is it a form of video game addiction?

Well, chess addiction is better, at least! (Both laugh)

Do you think that chess tournament rules may change somehow in the future?

Well, there's already a chess variant called Fischer's chess, with a different starting position. Unlike classical chess, there's next to no opening theory, and it's interesting, but still not as popular yet as classical chess.

So, chess isn't obsolete yet?

Chess isn't obsolete, and it's unlikely it'll go obsolete in the immediate future, because computers discover more and more new possibilities. Unlike checkers, computers haven't solved chess yet, and probably won't solve them for quite a bit of time.

So, there's still a chance for humans to defeat computers?

Only theoretical. When you play against a computer that calculates several million variants per second... well.

What irritates you when people talk about chess? When the rook gets called a tura, for instance? Or someone insists to "Move your horse"?

(Laughs) I've already gotten used to chess fans telling me "Move your horse, vek voli ne vidat" [a quote from the cult Soviet comedy Gentlemen of Fortune]... (Both laugh) In earlier times, some people thought that chess players were nerds only interested in chess and nothing more, but now, this stereotype is broken. There are now less and less people who think that, so this probably means that we're doing our job well.

What would you like to change in the perception of chess in our country and in the world?

I would like chess to be featured on TV more prominently. At one tournament, we played an Armageddon play-off game, and it was broadcast live on Match TV. There was huge interest, people actually watched that. The good thing for me isn't even that I won that tournament, though, of course, I was glad to win. Such formats increase the popularity of chess. Seeing more chess on TV would be very cool.