Blitz Chess Chats #3 | Dr Marguerite Tracy | Care of People Living with Addiction
#blitzchesschats #interview #scotchgambit
Welcome to the third entry of Blitz Chess Chats! In this series, I speak to medical academics and researchers about their field of expertise and program of research… and we start the interview with an icebreaker of a game of 5-minute blitz!
Come for the chess and stay for the interview! ♟️🤪👍
On the 28th of July 2025, I spoke with Dr Marguerite Tracy, a Specialist General Practitioner (a “Family Physician” in North America), Senior Lecturer at the University of Sydney, and Staff Specialist in Addiction Medicine at Western Sydney Local Health District, about providing comprehensive whole-person care to people living with addictions, specifically, those with opioid use disorders.
* * *
Contents
5-min blitz: Transposed — Scotch Gambit, London Defense
Full transcript of the interview
* * *
The game
Dr Marguerite Tracy had the white pieces, and she hadn’t played chess since the age of ten, so essentially a complete beginner, and as such, it was very sporting that she played along! She led with the queen’s pawn (1. d4) and as per usual, I responded with the Englund Gambit (1… e5). Not uncommonly in beginner games, the opening immediately goes in an unexpected direction with Dr Tracy declining the Englund Gambit with (2. e4), ostensibly transposing to a Center Game.
After a capture (2… exd4), she developed the king’s knight (3. Nf3), which is the Kieseritzky Variation rather than immediately recapture with queen, two which I responded with (3… Nc6), transposing the game into the Scotch Game. I’d expected White to go down the Scotch main line (4. Nxd4) which would allow one of my favourites, the Steinitz Variation of (4… Qh4), but Dr Tracy had good instincts and played the tricky (4. Bc4) instead, which is the Scotch Gambit! The Scotch Gambit is one of the most winning openings for White! Normally, I respond to the Scotch Gambit with the two knights approach (4… Nf6), which is the Dubois Réti Defense, which I first covered here.
However, as I was playing with the 1849 Staunton, which I played up in my review as a very English themed set, I couldn’t help but play (4… Bb4+) for the sake of chess romanticism, the London Defense. As a point of history, our namesake Englishman Howard Staunton played and won with this line with the black pieces against Scotsman John Cochrane in 1842. Staunton was Cochrane’s chess protégé, who helped him prepare and defeat Frenchman Saint-Amant, the master of the Café de le Régence in 1843, and in doing so, established that London, not Paris, was the international capital of chess! 🤩👍
However, this was more of a poetic decision than a sensible one, as I don’t think I’ve ever played the London Defense before! 😅 In the subsequent turns, I actually made several mistakes, due to a blindness to White having a tactical punch with a bishop sacrifice (of Bxf7+). Luckily, this isn’t the sort of move beginner players find!
On turn 9, I leapt forward with my knight (9… Nxe4??) which was technically a blunder (though it only returned to equality) as White had another opportunity to strike with Bxf7+. Interestingly, in our discussion earlier, Dr Tracy explained that one of the reasons that the knight was her favourite piece was that its L-shaped move was interesting and could result in unexpected tactics. I’ve observed that beginner chess players are certainly at risk of blundering against knights; and case in point, (10. Qd2??). Dr Tracy was so focussed on defending her c3-pawn, she didn’t recognise that the d2 square was also attacked by my forward knight!
We played a few more turns with White having difficulty finding good moves. On turn 16, Dr Tracy’s clock ran down to zero, good game, GG!
* * *
Interview synopsis
Note: click on the links to go directly to the video at the timestamp
Dr Marguerite Tracy started [08:00] with an overview of substance use disorders and working in an [09:25] outpatient drug and alcohol service. She explained the difference between a substance dependence and a use disorder, and we noted that one of the most common ways people become dependent on opioids in Australia is through [11:52] prescription medicines rather than illicit opioids. We then discuss the medical treatments [13:22] that are available in the opioid treatment program and discuss in particular the newer [15:17] forms of long-acting injectable buprenorphine which has made a big difference to many people living with an opioid use disorder.
An insight that might not be obvious to the general community is the [17:14] stigma and stereotypes that are held regarding people living with opioid addiction, and how this becomes a barrier to access to good treatments.
We should challenge those initial stereotypes especially given… [a lot of] opioid use disorder comes from pharmaceuticals.
— Dr Marguerite Tracy, 25 July 2025
Marguerite and I then discuss her success at winning a [19:45] large competitive Medical Research Future Fund (MRFF) grant, to undertake a program of research and development to create a model of care to provide whole-person care to people living with opioid use disorder. She described her early clinical experience of having some of her patients die from a very late diagnosis of lung cancer, a cancer that is generally preventable. Dr Tracy described [24:43] the phenomenon that drug health services can fall into nihilistic beliefs about their ability to influence the broader health and wellbeing of their patients.
Dr Tracy then gave an [30:49] overview of the study methods, with data collection through some surveys of patients, interviews from clinicians, and also through the linkage of data from large health administrative datasets. One of the results of interest is the patient’s use and linkage to GP (family medicine) clinics given that ultimately, high quality primary care and preventive medicine cannot be delivered through drug and alcohol services. The latter phase of the study will be to co-design a model of care to better integrate the care system for both patients and clinicians.
* * *
Post-game interview transcript
Dr Michael Tam
Now, Dr Tracy. So, you're a Senior Lecturer at the University of Sydney, which is where we are at the moment. [Yes]. And, you're also GP, so a family doctor, and also an addiction medicine specialist, is that right?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
I’m working towards it. My official title is a Staff Specialist in Addiction Medicine, but I haven't got my fellowship credentials yet; my full formal qualification as an addiction medicine specialist. So, I'm there on a technicality at the moment.
Dr Michael Tam
So, working towards it. And working in the field of addiction medicine in Western Sydney, I believe?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Yes, so predominantly working in public clinics in Western Sydney, in Blacktown and Mount Druitt mostly. And, also doing some research right across the Western Sydney Local Health District in that role, and also then teaching and research in my University of Sydney role.
Dr Michael Tam
Fantastic. Now, I think many of the viewers of the channel, I think they may understand the existence of addictions. And they understand that people can become addicted to many things, including alcohol and nicotine, and also things like heroin and opiates as well. Would you be able to give a bit of description of your day-to-day work at a public clinic?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
So, we have outpatient services, and I predominantly work in the outpatient environment. As part of your addiction medicine training, you you do more inpatient services and consult liaison. So, if people come into the emergency department, and have a drug or alcohol issue when they present predominantly, then we'll get called to the emergency department. Or, if people are in hospital and say they're coming for an operation or something, and they've they use other substances… Predominantly alcohol would be a common one where people would come in and then they'd find that they might be in withdrawal or what have you. So, our services would be called to that.
But most of what I do is in the outpatient department. Predominantly seeing people with opioid use disorder. So, people who have become dependent on opioids. Not just chemically dependent; as soon as you've been on an opioid drug like morphine, OxyContin, or something like that for a period of time you become chemically dependent really quickly and if you stop it suddenly, you'll feel uncomfortable. But for our patients, they also have other things happening to them, which is the definition of the substance use disorders. What that means is it's their use of those substances that is impacting on their overall life. It stops them doing the things they want to be doing or need to be doing. They're spending more and more of their time looking for those substances. Or, stopping themselves from feeling bad because they can't get the substance, so, treating a withdrawal. Or, needing more and more of a substance, or doing things in order to get the substance, which is what we call the use disorder part of that.
And that can happen for alcohol. It can happen for opioids, as you said. So, some people who come to us, their predominant substance of use is heroin. So, I suppose that's the classic one people think of; that people have been usually injecting heroin. But, I think we we're also seeing quite a number of people who have developed a substance use disorder from prescribed opioids or getting prescribed medications through other means.
Dr Michael Tam
I seem to recall that… it's a little bit fuzzy now as I haven't looked at it in a little bit; that in terms of looking at people who have a dependence on opiates, that in fact the majority of people are through prescribed opiates and in fact prescribed opiates which prescribe to them as opposed to illegal substances.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Yeah. So that would be the predominant way that people become dependent on the substance. Whether or not they then develop a substance use disorder, and then need an addiction medicine person, or in fact a GP can quite easily manage opioid use, substance use disorder in practice as well, because we have excellent medications to assist people and as part of a treatment program.
But yeah, the dependence part; most of the dependence that that occurs in Australia is from prescribed opioids. You know, someone has had a knee replacement or something and their pain just persists a little bit longer than that first or second prescription that they get when they're discharged from hospital. And they might get a little bit on follow up, and they might get a bit more, and they don't quite get on top of their pain, and off we go down the cycle of dependence.
Whether or not they then have escalating doses and seek, or go down that behaviour path that is a substance use disorder is a whole other story.
Dr Michael Tam
I think specifically for opioid use disorder — so people let's say with an addiction to opioids, which could be heroin, it could be prescription opioids as well — you mentioned that there are good treatments. I think a lot of people are aware of the existence of methadone. They may not know the ins and outs. But there are quite a few other treatments now that might, even though methadone is a good treatment, make it not necessarily be the preferred treatment.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Firstly, there are a couple of things that are available in Australia. We have methadone, which is an oral liquid. We have different types of buprenorphine. Firstly, there was Subutex which is a sublingual tablet, but we don't use that very much because there's issues with it being easy to divert, and we can talk about diversion, but it's not the main issue here. There is sublingual films, which is Suboxone, which is buprenorphine plus naloxone, and the naloxone part of it is an opioid blocker, and if you injected it, you wouldn't get the same effect. So, it's another mechanism to stop diversion.
Dr Michael Tam
Just for the people watching, the idea is that the naloxone blocks some of the effect in the gut [only, when you take it orally], but when you inject it…
Dr Marguerite Tracy
… it will bind to the receptors. More strongly and faster, and knock any of the opioids off the receptors. So, it’ll bind really quickly, and it puts people into what we call precipitated withdrawal, which is not a pleasant place to be. You feel sick very quickly.
Dr Michael Tam
And some of the newer forms of buprenorphine?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Probably around the 10-year mark, depot buprenorphine has been available in Australia and is just rising in prevalence. There's a couple of reasons for that. So, that would be an injection in the fat. There are two brands, but one is in the belly and the other one can be given in the arms, legs or upper back side or belly,
Dr Michael Tam
And by “depot”, you mean an injection that lasts a long time.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Yeah. So, there's two preparations: one lasts a week, and one lasts for a month. And those have been game changers for a whole bunch of reasons.
Methadone… has also been called liquid handcuffs. t's a massive imposition on someone's life. You have to turn up somewhere most days; every day at the start, you got to turn up; someone's going to watch you drink your methadone, or have your sublingual strip [buprenorphine (Suboxone)]. That stops you from being able to go on holidays. If you're working, initially it can be quite restrictive. We've got ways around that with takeaway doses and things. What these new injectable preparations have meant is that for people who want to move from methadone or sublingual preparations can suddenly be having an injection once a week or once a month, and that is managing their opioid use disorder.
We're doing a nice little study at the moment, which we hope to publish probably next year, talking to people regarding their expectations before they change medication. And it's just lovely. You know, they — not too many spoilers — but they really have hopes for greater freedom and being able to move on with their lives. I think it's a lovely story and I look forward to being able to tell that one.
Dr Michael Tam
Just to flesh out the story for some of the viewers. I think that when we talk about people with heroin addictions, the view that perhaps a person on the street might have is quite a stigmatised view from media. You know, the person who's a “junkie”, who's committing crime, who lives a hard life, and causes a hard life for other people as well. Certainly, I've seen in some of my own patients that once they go on to opioid treatment, be it methadone or one of the buprenorphine preparations, it really makes the opioid use disorder just the chronic illness. They take a medicine, potentially every day, but for some of the newer preparations, it's not even every day, and they work, they do all the ordinary things, you wouldn't know, you're not visibly someone living with an addiction when you're walking around the community. It really changes people.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Yeah. I think that that destigmatisation has been a huge part of it. I'd say that is certainly a stereotype and it's not really always what I see come through the door. We see people from all walks of life, people who've been able to afford their habit for a really long time; with their substance use disorder they really have to get quite a long way into it before they get to us. But you know, we should challenge those initial stereotypes especially given what we've spoken about with a lot of that opioid use disorder coming from pharmaceuticals. That that picture is changing.
I must admit that a lot of people we see have also started on opioid dependence treatments in custody, in gaol. They may not have necessarily gone in with an opioid use disorder. It's a stressful place to be. People start using opioids in custody for escape or for whatever reasons, and then they start on opioid dependence treatment and they come out on that. We've got people from all different backgrounds in treatment.
Dr Michael Tam
Now, one of the things that I'm aware of, because I suppose I’m on the project as well, is that you were successful in getting a fairly large competitive grant, an MRFF grant, which is Medical Research Future Fund. So, tell me about the project that you put into the application. What’s the plan and what's the idea of your body of research?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Before I started working at the LHD [Western Sydney Local Health District], I was working in general practice, and that's where I learned to prescribe methadone and buprenorphine with other really engaged GPs. That was in an Aboriginal medical service. We were all prescribers. We did this in community. And our patients were all having Aboriginal health checks, we were doing child health checks on their kids, they were getting their annual flu vax [vaccination]. All of these things were happening, and they were just getting really good wrap around care.
Sure, people still get sick and all the rest of it, but we were there to manage that very holistically. When I started working in the LHD, I was quite shocked how many of our patients had such poor care of their overall healthcare needs. I lost a couple of patients really early, to very late diagnosis of cancer. So, lung cancer in particular, and we've got the lung cancer screening program which is just kicked off in Australia this month, and that's so exciting. But I was really concerned that they weren't getting the healthcare that they needed.
So, the project aims to address this by strengthening ties for people who are on opioid dependence treatment, and we're starting with our cohort of people who are being prescribed within the Local Health District. So, staff specialists like myself who write their prescriptions for methadone or buprenorphine, and we see them roughly every three months for most people, more often for those who are new in treatment, and all the rest of it. But trying to get those people linked in with a local GP, and getting those general background checks, getting their cancer screening up to date. If they’ve got diabetes, it's undiagnosed or diagnosed, but they haven't been on treatment, getting them back, taking their regular diabetes medications, their blood pressure tablets, all of those sorts of things and working out how we can facilitate that.
We're putting together… we're calling it a model of care, but I hesitate to use that because really what we're going to try to do is use the models that are there but work out how we can support people to use those. It will probably be having some practices that we that we specifically engage. The first year of the project is to develop this model and then implement it probably next year.
Yeah, after more ethics applications [laugh]! But we're trying to work out what people need. I think that it will be a suite of things for our patients. So, things that assist them in shared decision making, things that assist them in understanding the role of their GP, and how that's different from the specialists that's seeing them in the drug and alcohol space. It's going to be some services that support the practice [GP clinic], because I think you've already mentioned there's these community expectations of what someone on substance use disorder is like and how they might be in in our practices. So, we’ll be talking to all the practice staff: front administrative staff, practice managers and GPs, to see whether they need some additional support with; maybe it's stigma training, maybe it's looking at the wonderful guide [Language matters] that NSW Users & AIDS Association have put out on the language that destigmatises and we might supply that; we might have practice agreements that both the practice and the patients feel happy with. So, we might say that if you're going to come to one of these practices, it’s not going to be a practice that's going to prescribe benzodiazepines or additional opioids, unless we talk with your prescriber. It’s tightening up the communication between practices and the LHD.
Dr Michael Tam
So, creating some enabling structures, I guess?
Your service, it's not a primary care service. It's a specialty service for a particular group, but you might be providing primary care to that population?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
No, we're really not providing very much primary care at all. We really do treatment and management of their substance use disorder. We had a lovely little side project during COVID where we got some additional clinics to come in, where we showed that if we provided it on-site that our patients weren't opposed. We had to do a lot of things to change people minds. But we had the same rates of vaccination for our patients as the rest of the local community. Whereas before there’s been this thing of well, you know, “drug health patients don't wanna be immunised”. It was just rubbish; it was just they didn't have access. You know we facilitated things like their Medicare numbers and things like that. At the moment we're ramping up a collaboration with our dental services to provide additional care. Other than that, not much primary care at all.
Dr Michael Tam
It is fascinating, because, you know that I work with a population of people with severe mental illness and there is almost learned helplessness for the service…
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Ohh, I was going to say, not the patient!
Dr Michael Tam
Or a therapeutic nihilism. So, it's very similar, “people with mental illness don't wana quit smoking”, when there’s clear evidence that they want to quit smoking at the same rate as everybody else. But it's just harder.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Well, they've smoked for longer and greater amounts.
Dr Michael Tam
That's right. And you think that the logical response because it's harder you have to do more, not less. When I see sort of some of my consumers, it's similar: there are high rates of diabetes and preventable conditions, which are probably ambulatory care sensitive. So, yeah, screenable cancers, metabolic disease for instance.
And it it's quite fascinating because we'll see the occasional person with quite poorly controlled diabetes say, and of course, they're not happy about it. And then, you tell the individual that there’s certain things we'd like you to do. For example, intervening in the diet in particular ways and maybe increasing physical activity and, people actually do it. The nature of the illness is that sometimes people are quite concrete, and so they do things, in fact that I wouldn't actually expect someone to be able to do in mainstream general practice. The intervention I did was hardly anything; it was really just pointing out, “well, we really need to take this seriously”.
And I think there is a low hanging fruit. The people who are not only able to change, but want to change, but just haven't been given that slight bit of support to do so.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Absolutely.
Dr Michael Tam
And then the others who will need a lot more support. Yeah, which doesn't currently exist, I guess.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Yeah. No, we don't have a lot of additional support. I will often say to my patients, “I'm really sorry, but you can't take the GP out of the GP” and that they'll come in to see me and they'll just want to be in and out as fast as possible and have and have all the drug health stuff ticked off. And I’ll say, “have you had your flu vax this year?”. You know, many of them are coming to learn that that's how I like to do things and look after them. But we we're not funded… If I find someone needs contraception, I haven't got the facilities to put in their Implanon or do an IUD, or whatever that I might have done in general practice.
I do want them to have that overall wrap around care. You and I both well know that continuity, wrap around comprehensive care that people get in general practice is what keeps people alive for longer and healthier. And I didn't feel it was my place to do that piecemeal in the service that I was doing them a disservice if I was being their GP. Whereas your practice is trying to provide GP services to the seriously mentally ill patients, our practice is not that.
Dr Michael Tam
It's definitely front of mind for us as well… we mindfully want to not fragment people’s care further. Now for some people it's already fragmented and so it's about stabilisation before trying to strategically move people back. But the risk of course, is we don't want to be seen as someone’s… you know, “Joe's sick, and this is the pathway”, as opposed to, “we really need to get them to their GP who’s good. The relationship is a bit tenuous, but because it's tenuous it needs the effort”. And not, “because it's tenuous, we need to take them away”.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Yeah, interestingly, there's a new practice in Western Sydney that's being partially funded through the Primary Health Network, which is providing us GP services to people who don't have GP. The way that is working is that they'll do exactly what you guys are doing. They'll stabilise someone and then support them to get a GP closer to home who would become their ongoing GP.
I'm hoping that our project… well, either may or may not use that project, but we'll do that facilitation to get people to general practice.
Dr Michael Tam
So, I was going to ask like… because your project is still in the early days and I don’t necessarily want to pre-empt a whole bunch of things…
Dr Marguerite Tracy
No, still sitting in the quagmire of ethics at the moment!
Dr Michael Tam
… but in terms of the stages or the grand architecture of the project, how do you see it running over the next few years?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
The idea is the first part was ethics to develop the model of care. So, we're doing a survey; we've got about 950 people on treatment in Western Sydney who have been prescribed, and we want to survey them all, find out what their experiences, whether they say they've got a GP, what their experiences are. We're going to look at their experiences of stigma and how much that's been internalised as part of the survey, we're going to look at their health literacy levels so that any components we can tailor to the health literacy levels. I’m trying to think what else is in our survey… a little bit about dental health, and what other medical conditions they have, which will give us a bit of a grounding.
We're also getting their consent to data linkage, and this is where the this is where the additional ethics has been challenging, but we're working on it. What we'll do is we're going to use the National Health Data Hub to link, to look at all their Medical Benefits Schedule data, the Pharmaceutical Benefits [Scheme] data, the Australian Immunisation Record and hospital presentations to triangulate a little bit about the people… how much are they getting as a background before we do anything. How many of them have got GPs? How many of them see a GP regularly? Maybe get their diabetes medications regularly. How many of them are immunised?
So,I really want to challenge this other thing that, “our patients don't have GP”, which is a really common statement. Anyway, that's the basic survey and data linkage part.
Dr Michael Tam
Just to help me conceptualise it: so, it sounds like a sort of multifaceted data collection of people on the opioid treatment programme in your geographic area [yes], and it sounds like the information they'll be collected will be about the person in terms of their health status [yep], about their healthcare utilisation [yes], and also their beliefs and attitudes [yeah], or their preferences or experiences?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
And a measure of how ready they are to change and engage more in their healthcare. So, then we're talking to pharmacists, both those pharmacists that are part of the opioid dependence treatment program, whether they're the dispensing pharmacy. So, when some of our patients actually get their medication from a pharmacy, rather than dosing at our clinic. We're going to talk to pharmacies who are part of that program and pharmacists that aren’t.
And talk to general practices and all the members of staff to see how all those members of the healthcare team can support a person to improve their overall health. And we're also doing a quality improvement project at drug health services to improve to the communication from drug health out to GPs. Because at the moment with those attitudes of well, “our patients don't really have GPs or don't see GPs”… Also, people are able to self-refer, which is wonderful. It reduces barriers to treatment. So, someone can walk through our door and say, “Hey, I've got a problem with heroin; I wanna get on treatment. I’ve seen my friend on it; they say it's a good thing”. They can walk in the door, we can assess them and get them on treatment Just about that day, with further assessments.
It's a low barrier to accessing the service but it means they don't need a GP referral, and that's different to if you go to gastroenterology outpatients, or respiratory outpatients or something, you need a GP referral. So, we don't have that automatic link with general practice. So, we don't have that data; it's not easy to collect
Dr Michael Tam
You know, as you said that it does strike me that, there's different tensions. So, when we think about domains of healthcare quality, access is an important dimension. But it's only one of them. And in the context that a person, let's say they are in the throes of heroin addiction, it is a chaotic time and so access becomes very important. But then as the stage of their Illness moves on increasingly the access is actually not the issue anymore. It’s all the other aspects of healthcare quality, particularly continuity and the comprehensiveness.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
When I looked at the data, and I don't think I mentioned it earlier, but I looked at the data for people on opioid dependence treatment. And their morbidity and mortality drops, improves I should say, significantly as soon as you put them on treatment. But that cohort still died on average ten years younger than other Australians and it's not then predominantly due to drug use. It’s preventable conditions and chronic disease.
Hopefully we'll then develop this bunch of support services and systems and things that we’ll put in place, and we'll then have to do a clinical trial ethics application and put that in place. And we'll use some qualitative interviews and focus groups and things to see how that's worked. And, we'll be able to use data linkage again: have we made a difference? Are people getting more chronic disease management plans, which are about to change their name their name again! Are they getting more immunisations? Are they getting more of their regular other medications? And potentially, see a decrease in unpredicted emergency and hospital presentations, and things like that.
Dr Michael Tam
Oh, very good, very good. So, what are the next steps for you in terms of the project? What's the next big thing that that you'll have to have to work on?
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Right this week we're working with the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare to get ethical approval for the data linkage. Because it's a New South Wales [NSW] project, because the participants in the study are from Western Sydney Local Health District, it also has to go through the NSW Population Health Services Ethics Committee. So, it's with both of those right this week, and I'm nervously looking at my emails frequently. As soon as we've done that, we can start. We've got the survey ready to roll. We've piloted it. We're ready to go and get that information from 950 people. We've started talking to pharmacists. We're next week going to be talking to GPs. And after that, we'll be talking to patients as well; I don't think I mentioned that earlier.
And hopefully have this model starting to take shape. Hopefully by the end of the year that that's taking shape and we've got something we can put in place, to put together; what we'll have to call a clinical trial because it's a health services intervention. Yeah, and go through some of that again! But yeah, that's where we're at.
Dr Michael Tam
Well, you know, ethics is always fun! Not quite. But best of luck with that.
Thanks for speaking to me today and the game of chess, I'm sure we'll cross path, well, we’re on various committees together, so I'm sure we'll cross paths again. And, I’m really looking forward to seeing how — and I know you don't want to call it a model of care — but it’s a model of care…
Dr Marguerite Tracy
It's a model of care.
Dr Michael Tam
… I'm really keen to seeing how it shapes up.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
Thank you so much.
Dr Michael Tam
Wonderful.
Dr Marguerite Tracy
And I might play a few more games of chess. It's certainly reignited my interest to have another go, thanks.
Dr Michael Tam
Thank you.
* * *
Learn how to play the best chess opening attacks in the Romantic style with my new book, “Become a Chess Assassin!”.
