An actual case of collusion in FFA?

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Skeftomilos
reasons wrote:

I think the rules forbid precisely what is made explicit: you cannot employ prearranged teaming, nor teaming via chat during play. For more clarity, we might want to ask Martin0 what else, if anything, is covered under those rules.

 

@reasons in this phase we are trying to clarify the rules. Rehearsing the exact same wording doesn't make it much clearer. The term "teaming" is disputed right now. Do you have any idea about what this term might mean? If you do, please share it with us. If you don't, then you can't claim that you understand the rule, in which case you are not in a position to offer an informed opinion about the issue at hand: Was the game #379049 played by the rules, or some players gained an advantage by violating the rules? Please don't obfuscate the matter by stating your opinion about what the rules should be. We are talking about what the rules are right now.

Getting an answer by @Martin0 would be great of course, but I must note that currently we don't have many competing definitions of "teaming". Only one (#36) has been presented so far. It would be helpful if we had at least another one, so that we have something to discuss.

mattedmonds
GDII wrote:
  • Hide the identities of the players during the game. If players don't know the identities and skill level of their opponents, the risk associated with trusting an opponent to coordinate an attack will be much larger. One could argue that knowing the identity of your opponents and your history of games with them is useful information to determine and adapt your game strategy, but I think that whoever your opponents are, should never really affect your play. Ideally, players should always aim to play the best possible moves, considering all possible moves their opponents might play.

This is a great suggestion. The worst examples I am seeing is because of familiarity between those that play all the time and the fact that without needing to say anything they know they can rely on their opposite to play in a certain way based on many previous games with them.

Further to this, the "metagame" i.e. not the results of any individual game but a significant series of games over time, result in them taking actions not because it was seen as best interest in a specific game, but the trust of all future games between 2 players. This causes bad outcomes in individual games as there is implied collusion between the 2 regulars that often play each other. Take out the knowledge of who you are playing and this disappears, which is much better for the game!

Skeftomilos
Balca wrote:

I spent all the day thinking about and I strongly believe the rules are clear and good. But always will be clever guys who will evade the rules. But that clever guys will make the game more interesting.

@Balca I would like to ask you a question. You just said that the rules are clear. Did a rule violation occurred in the game #379049 or not? Classical (boolean) logic permits no other possibilities. The rules were either violated or not. Can you provide a yes or no answer?

spacebar

@Skeftomilos, it appears you are capable of deciding if the rules were broken or not for any given game. And of course which player(s) broke them. Please also suggest a what your punishment would be for each player that broke the rules.

I will give you a half dozen games (for starters. i can supply 1000 more), each of which was reported for "cheating / prearranged teaming". I'm am looking forward to the insight you will provide. I'm sure that after reading your verdict for each of these games, it will be clear to everyone what is allowed, and what isn't.

 

#1


1. j2-j3 .. b7-d7 .. h13-h11 .. Nn5-l6
2. Nj1-i3 .. d7-e7 .. h11-h10 .. Nn10-l9
3. Bi1-j2 .. e7-f7 .. h10-h9 .. m10-l10
4. O-O .. f7-g7 .. h9-h8 .. Bn9-m10
5. Ri1-h1 .. g7-h7=Q .. d13-d11 .. m8-l8
6. g2-g4 .. Ba6xBi14 .. Nj14-i12 .. m5-l5
7. Bj2-k1 .. Bi14xj13 .. Ni12-g11 .. Bm10xBj13
8. g4-g5 .. b6-c6 .. Rk14-j14 .. Bj13-m10
9. g5-g6 .. Qh7-g8 .. Ng11-e12 .. Bn6-m5
10. h2-h4 .. Na10-c9 .. Ne14-f12 .. O-O
11. h4-h5 .. b8-d8 .. d11-d10 .. Rn6-n7
12. e2-e3 .. Nc9-d7 .. h8-h7=Q .. Nl6-m8
13. Bf1xb5 .. T .. Qh7xNd7 .. m7-k7
14. Qg1-g2 .. Qh14-h6 .. Bm5-l6
15. Rh1-h3 .. Qd7xQa7 .. Nl9-k11
16. Bb5xc6 .. Ne12-f10 .. Nk11-i12
17. Bc6xKa8 .. Rj14-j12 .. Ni12xk13
18. Ni3-g4 .. Qh6-k3 .. Bm10-l9+
19. h5-h6 .. Nf12-h13 .. m11-k11
20. h6-h7 .. d10-d9 .. k11xRj12
21. h7-h8=Q .. Nf10-g12 .. j12-i12
22. Qh8xNh13+# .. i12xQh13
23. Rh3xh13 .. Bl9xRh13
24. Ba8-d5 .. Bh13-l9
25. Bd5xQg8 .. Nm8-k9
26. Bg8-j5 .. Rn11-j11
27. Bj5-i4 .. Qn8-n11
28. g6-g7 .. Bl9xNg4
29. f2-f4 .. Bg4xRd1
30. g7-g8=Q .. Bd1-i6
31. Qg8-g6 .. Rj11-j6
32. Qg6-g11 .. Qn11-k8
33. Qg11xNg12 .. Qk8-j8
34. Ne1-f3 .. Bi6xNf3
35. Qg2xBf3 .. Nk13-j11
36. Qg12-g5 .. Bl6-j4
37. Qg5xQj8 .. Rj6xQj8
38. f4-f5 .. m4-k4
39. Bk1-i3 .. Bj4xBi3
40. Qf3xBi3 .. k4-j4
41. Qi3-h3 .. l5-k5
42. f5-f6 .. Nk9-j7
43. f6-f7 .. Rj8-h8
44. Qh3-g4 .. Nj11-k9
45. Qg4-g7 .. Rh8-h1+
46. Kj1-j2 .. Rn7-n11
47. f7-f8=Q .. Rn11-h11
48. Qf8-f3 .. Rh11-h7
49. Qg7-g11 .. Kn5-m5
50. Qg11-n11 .. Rh7-h11
51. Qn11-l9 .. Nk9-l7
52. Ql9xNj7 .. R

(in case you dont know how to load pgn: 1) copy the pgn. 2) open 4pc page and type "A" (analysis board). 3) click clear and paste the pgn. 4) click load.

 

#2


1. g2-g4 .. b8-c8 .. h13-h11 .. m9-k9
2. Nj1-i3 .. Qa7-d10 .. h11-h10 .. m10-l10
3. d2-d4 .. Qd10-d5+ .. h10-h9 .. Bn9-m10
4. f2-f3 .. Qd5-i5 .. h9-h8 .. Bm10-l9+
5. Bf1-g2 .. Qi5xi13 .. Bi14-h13 .. m5-l5
6. Bg2xm8+ .. Qi13xj13 .. Bh13xBl9 .. Nn10xBm8
7. Qg1-g2 .. Qj13xRk14 .. h8-h7=Q .. m7-l7
8. Qg2xl7+ .. Qk14-e8 .. Bl9xNm8+#
9. Ql7-f1 .. Qe8-c6 .. Bm8-i12
10. e2-e4 .. Qc6-c7 .. Qh7-h9
11. e4-e5 .. b6-c6 .. Ne14-f12
12. Ne1-g2 .. Na5-c4 .. g13-g12
13. h2-h4 .. b5-d5 .. k13-k11
14. Qf1-f2 .. Qc7-b6 .. k11xl10
15. k2-k4 .. Nc4xe5 .. l10xk9
16. Bi1xNe5 .. Ba9xBe5 .. k9-k8
17. f3-f4 .. Be5-a9 .. k8-k7=Q
18. Kh1-i1 .. b11-c11 .. Bf14-l8
19. Rd1-h1 .. d5-e5 .. Qh9-e12
20. f4xe5 .. Ba6-b5 .. Qk7-i9
21. Qf2-g1 .. c11-d11 .. Nf12xd11
22. Ki1-j1 .. b10-c10 .. Nd11-c9+
23. d4-d5 .. R .. Nc9xKa8
24. e5-e6 .. R

 

#3


1. h2-h4 .. b5-c5 .. e13-e12 .. m8-k8
2. Nj1-i3 .. Ba6-b5 .. Ne14-f12 .. k8-j8
3. Bi1-g3 .. b6-d6 .. Bf14-e13 .. Qn8-k8
4. O-O .. b8-c8 .. O-O .. Nn5-l4
5. h4-h5 .. Na5-c6 .. Nj14-i12 .. m7-k7
6. d2-d3 .. b11-c11 .. h13-h11 .. k7-j7
7. Bg3xm9 .. Na10-c9 .. Bi14-h13 .. Bn6-m7
8. k2-k3 .. Nc9-b11 .. Ni12-j10+ .. Nn10-l9
9. k3xNl4 .. Qa7-d10 .. Nj10xQk8 .. j8-i8
10. l4xm5 .. Nb11-d12+ .. Ke14-d14 .. Rn4-n5
11. Bm9xi13 .. Nd12xf13+ .. Rf14xNf13 .. i8-h8
12. Bi13xQh14 .. Ba9-b8 .. Rk14xBh14 .. h8-g8=Q
13. Ne1-f3 .. O-O .. Nk8-m9+ .. Kn7-n8
14. g2-g3 .. Nc6-e7 .. Nm9xRn11 .. Qg8-k8
15. Bf1xBn9 .. b7-d7 .. k13-k12 .. Rn5xm5
16. Bn9-i4 .. Ne7-d9 .. Kd14-e14 .. j7-i7
17. Bi4-j3 .. d7-e7 .. g13-g12 .. i7-h7
18. h5-h6 .. Bb5-d7 .. Rh14-i14 .. Nl9-k7
19. g3-g4 .. Qd10xh6 .. Rf13-f14 .. Nk7-j5
20. Ni3xNj5 .. Qh6-d10 .. Ri14-i10 .. Rm5xNj5
21. Qg1-g3 .. Nd9-f8 .. Ri10xQd10 .. Rj5-k5
22. Qg3-n10+# .. Bb8xRd10 .. Nn11-l10
23. Rd1-g1 .. Nf8xh7 .. d13-d11
24. Qn10-k7 .. Nh7-f8 .. Bh13-i12
25. Kj1-k1 .. b4-d4 .. Rf14-h14
26. Nf3-h4 .. Ra4-a7 .. Nl10-j9
27. Qk7xRk5 .. Ra7-c7 .. j13-j11
28. g4-g5 .. e7-f7 .. Nj9-h10
29. Qk5xQk8 .. f7-g7 .. Rh14-k14
30. g5-g6 .. Bd7-e8 .. Nh10-f11
31. f2-f4 .. Nf8xg6 .. Nf11xBd10
32. Nh4xNg6 .. g7-h7=Q .. Nd10xBe8
33. Ng6-i5 .. Qh7-e7 .. Ne8xRc7
34. Kk1-j1 .. Qe7xNc7 .. Nf12-e10
35. Qk8-h5 .. Ka10-a11 .. Ne10-c9
36. Rg1xg12 .. b10-c10 .. Bi12-h13
37. Rg12-h12 .. Qc7xRh12 .. Rk14-h14
38. f4-f5 .. Qh12xe12 .. Bh13-e10
39. f5-f6 .. Ra9-a5 .. h11-h10
40. f6-f7 .. Qe12-i8 .. Be13xc11
41. Ri1-f1 .. Qi8-e12+ .. Bc11-e13
42. f7-f8=Q .. c10xd11 .. Nc9xd11
43. Qh5-b11+# .. R

 

#4


1. h2-h4 .. b7-d7 .. e13-e12 .. m5-l5
2. h4-h5 .. d7-e7 .. Bf14-e13 .. Nn5-l6
3. h5-h6 .. e7-f7 .. Ne14-f12 .. Bn6-m5
4. h6-h7 .. f7-g7 .. O-O .. m8-k8
5. Ne1-f3 .. b6-d6 .. g13-g12 .. k8-j8
6. k2-k3 .. d6-e6 .. h13-h11 .. O-O
7. g2-g4 .. e6-f6 .. h11-h10 .. Bn9xBf1
8. Qg1xBf1 .. f6-g6 .. h10-h9 .. Rn6-n7
9. h7-h8=Q .. g7xQh8=Q+ .. Nj14-i12 .. Bm5xk3
10. Nj1-h2 .. Na10-c9 .. Rf14-g14 .. Bk3-m5
11. g4-g5 .. b11-c11 .. Nf12-g10 .. m11-l11
12. Qf1-g2 .. Qh8-d8 .. h9-h8 .. j8-i8
13. Nf3-e5+ .. Ba6-b7 .. Ni12-g13 .. Qn8-j8
14. f2-f3 .. Qa7-d4 .. Ng10-f12 .. Nn10-l9
15. Ne5xg6 .. Nc9-e10 .. Ng13-h11 .. Qj8-n8
16. e2-e3 .. Qd4-d7 .. d13-d11 .. m7-k7
17. d2-d4 .. Ne10-d12+ .. Ke14-f14 .. Qn8-l8+
18. d4-d5 .. b4-c4 .. Rg14-g13 .. k7-j7
19. Ng6-e5 .. Qd7-c8 .. Nf12-e14 .. Ql8-m7
20. d5-d6 .. b5-d5 .. Ne14xNd12 .. j7-i7
21. d6-d7 .. Qc8-c7 .. Nd12-f11 .. i7xh8
22. g5-g6 .. Qc7xNe5 .. Nh11-j12 .. h8-g8=Q
23. f3-f4 .. Qd8xQg8 .. Kf14-e14 .. Rn7-n8
24. f4xQe5 .. b8-c8 .. Nf11-h10 .. i8-h8
25. d7xc8=Q+ .. Qg8xQc8 .. i13-i11 .. l11-k11
26. j2-j3 .. Ba9xe5 .. Nj12-h13 .. m4-l4
27. Nh2-f3 .. Be5-b8 .. f13-f12 .. h8-g8=Q
28. Bi1xBb8 .. Qc8-c9 .. k13-k12 .. Qg8-h8+
29. Bb8-h2+ .. Ka8-a7 .. Nh10-j11 .. Nl6-j5
30. Rk1-i1 .. Ra4-b4 .. Rg13-g14 .. Nj5-i3+
31. Kh1-g1 .. Ka7-b6 .. Be13-f14 .. Ni3xQg2
32. Kg1xNg2 .. Na5-c6 .. i11-i10 .. Qm7-l7+
33. i2-i4 .. Ra11-a7 .. Nj11-k9 .. Ql7-n7
34. Rd1-g1 .. Ra7-a8 .. Qh14-i13+ .. Qh8xRa8
35. Kg2-h1 .. Kb6-c5 .. Nk9xm10 .. Qa8-k8
36. Nf3-h4 .. Bb7-c8 .. T .. Qk8xi10
37. Nh4-j5 .. Rb4-b7 .. Qn7-n6
38. Nj5-l6+ .. Qc9-h9 .. Bm5xNl6
39. g6-g7 .. Qh9xQi10 .. Bl6xBh2
40. Kh1xBh2 .. b10-d10 .. Qn6xBf14
41. g7-g8=Q .. Bc8-f11 .. Qf14xKe14
42. Qg8xRn8+ .. Bf11xl5 .. Nl9xQn8
43. Rg1-g5 .. Rb7-n7+ .. Kn5-m5
44. Ri1-k1 .. Bl5xm6+ .. Km5-l6
45. Rk1-k9 .. Qi10-i6+#
46. Rk9xb9 .. Rn7-h7+
47. Rg5-h5 .. Rh7xRh5+
48. i4xRh5 .. Qi6xh5+
49. Kh2-g2 .. Bm6xj3
50. Rb9-c9 .. d10-e10
51. Rc9xNc6+ .. Kc5xRc6
52. R

 

#5


1. Nj1-i3 .. b7-d7 .. g13-g11 .. Nn5-l6
2. j2-j3 .. Na10-c9 .. Ne14-f12 .. m10-l10
3. Bi1-j2 .. b8-c8 .. Nj14-i12 .. m9-k9
4. O-O .. Ba9-b8 .. h13-h11 .. m7-k7
5. g2-g4 .. Nc9-d11 .. Nf12xNd11 .. k7-j7
6. Bf1-g2+ .. Ka8-a9 .. Nd11-f12 .. j7-i7
7. g4-g5 .. b5-c5 .. Bf14-g13 .. i7-h7
8. d2-d3 .. b4-c4 .. O-O .. h7-g7=Q
9. Bg2-f3 .. c4xd3 .. g11-g10 .. Nn10-l9
10. Ne1xd3 .. Ba6-b7 .. Ni12-g11 .. m4-l4
11. Bf3xBb7 .. Na5xBb7 .. i13-i12 .. Bn9-m10
12. f2-f4 .. Ra4-e4 .. Ng11-e12 .. Bn6-m7
13. Qg1-g2 .. c5-d5 .. Rf14-g14 .. m8-k8
14. Nd3-e5 .. Nb7-d8 .. Qh14-i13 .. k8-j8
15. Rd1xd5 .. Re4xNe5 .. Qi13xNd8 .. j8-i8
16. Rd5xRe5 .. Bb8xRe5 .. Nf12-d11 .. Qg7-h7
17. f4xBe5 .. b9-c9 .. Qd8-g11 .. i8-h8
18. g5-g6 .. Ka9-b9 .. Nd11-f10 .. Qh7-j7
19. k2-k4 .. b11-d11 .. Ne12-d14 .. Bm10-n9
20. Qg2-c6 .. Qa7-c7 .. Qg11-f11 .. Qj7xe2
21. Qc6xQc7 .. b6xQc7 .. Qf11xc8+ .. Qe2xe5
22. Ni3-g4 .. Kb9-a9 .. h11-h10 .. Qe5-e4
23. Ng4-f6 .. d11-e11 .. Nf10-d9 .. Qe4-a4+#
24. Bj2-i3 .. g10-g9 .. h8xg9=Q
25. g6-g7 .. Qc8xQn8+ .. Nl9xQn8
26. g7-g8=Q .. h10xQg9 .. Bn9-m10
27. Qg8-g5 .. Nd9-f8 .. Rn4-n5
28. Nf6-g8 .. Bg13-f12 .. Qa4-c6
29. Ng8-i7 .. Bi14-f11 .. Rn11-n9
30. k4-k5 .. j13-j12 .. l4xk5
31. Qg5xk5 .. i12-i11 .. Nn8-l7
32. Qk5-k2 .. Nd14-e12 .. Kn7-n6
33. Ni7-k6 .. g9-g8 .. Bm7-n8
34. Nk6-l8 .. g8-g7=Q .. Rn9-m9
35. Nl8xBm10 .. Qg7-g4 .. Rm9xNm10
36. Qk2-k3 .. Qg4xRm10 .. Qc6-d6
37. Qk3-j4 .. Nf8-h9 .. Qd6-k6
38. Kj1-j2 .. Qm10xm11 .. l10-k10
39. Ri1-k1 .. Bf12xNl6 .. Qk6xBl6
40. Qj4xQl6 .. Qm11xm6+#
41. Ql6xQm6 .. i11-i10
42. Rk1-f1 .. Bf11-g10
43. Qm6-g6 .. f13-f11
44. Bi3-l6 .. j12-j11
45. Qg6-g9 .. Rg14-g13
46. Rf1-g1 .. Rk14-i14
47. Qg9xBg10 .. f11xQg10
48. Rg1-g9 .. j11-j10
49. Rg9xNh9 .. g10xRh9
50. R

 

#6


1. h2-h4 .. Na5-c6 .. e13-e12 .. m8-l8
2. h4-h5 .. b5-c5 .. Bf14-e13 .. Nn5-l6
3. h5-h6 .. Nc6-d4 .. Ne14-f12 .. m7-k7
4. h6-h7 .. Nd4xe2 .. O-O .. Bn6-m7
5. Bf1xNe2 .. Ba6xBe2 .. j13-j12 .. Nl6-j7
6. Qg1-h2 .. Be2xRd1 .. k13-k11 .. Bm7xQh2
7. R .. Bd1xNj7 .. h13-h11 .. Bn9xg2
8. Bj7xm10 .. Bi14-h13+ .. Nn10-m8
9. Na10-c9 .. Nj14-i12 .. Bg2xKh1
10. Bm10xRn11 .. Ni12-j10 .. Qn8xBn11
11. b4-d4 .. Nj10-k8 .. Qn11xNk8
12. d4-e4 .. Bh13-g14 .. O-O
13. b6-c6 .. Qh14-h13 .. Nm8-k9
14. e4-f4 .. j12-j11 .. Bh1xi2
15. b11-c11 .. j11-j10 .. Nk9-l7
16. b8-c8 .. k11-k10 .. Qk8-g4
17. Ba9-c7 .. k10-k9 .. l8xk9
18. Qa7-b8 .. j10xk9 .. Nl7-j6
19. O-O .. Qh13-l9 .. Qg4xQl9
20. Ra9-a5 .. Bg14xQl9 .. Bh2-i3
21. f4-g4 .. i13-i11 .. Bi3-k5
22. g4-h4=Q .. i11-i10 .. Bi2-l5
23. c5-d5 .. i10-i9 .. Rn6-n10
24. d5-e5 .. Rk14-k10 .. Rn10-n8
25. e5-f5 .. i9-i8 .. Nj6xi8
26. f5-g5 .. Rf14-i14 .. Ni8-j6
27. g5-h5=Q .. h11-h10 .. m11-l11
28. Qh5-b5 .. Rk10-m10 .. Bk5-m7
29. Qh4-b4 .. Rm10xm9 .. Bm7xk9
30. c6-d6 .. Ri14-i9 .. Bk9xg13
31. d6-e6 .. Rm9-m8 .. Rn8-n10
32. e6-f6 .. Bl9-k8 .. Rn10xh10
33. f6-g6 .. Rm8-n8+ .. Bg13-n6
34. g6-h6=Q .. Nf12-g10 .. Rh10xNg10
35. Qh6-d10 .. Be13-f14 .. Rg10-g14
36. Qd10-j4 .. Rn8xBn6+#
37. Qb5-f5 .. f13-f11
38. Qb4-f4 .. Bk8-j7
39. Qj4-f8 .. Ri9xNc9
40. Qb8xRc9 .. d13-d11
41. Qf8-l8 .. Bf14xQl8
42. Qc9-h14 .. Bj7-l9
43. Qf4-l10 .. Rn6-n9
44. Ql10xBl9 .. Rn9xQl9
45. Bc7-h12 .. Bl8xBh12
46. Qh14xBh12 .. Rl9-h9
47. Qh12xRh9 .. e12-e11
48. Qh9-g10 .. f11xQg10
49. Qf5-g6 .. d11-d10
50. Qg6xg10 .. Ke14-e13
51. Ra5-f5 .. e11-e10
52. Ra4-g4 .. d10-d9
53. Qg10-g13+ .. Ke13-e12
54. Qg13-g12+ .. Ke12-d11
55. Rf5-f11+#

Skeftomilos

I reviewed the first 3 games, to the point two players have been eliminated.
#1: No teaming
#2: No teaming
#3: No teaming (red's and blue's 11th moves are suspicious, but there was no continuation)
Is this helpful in any way so far?

Balca

Skeftomilos 

According to the general rules, no violation occured in the game  #379049. Everything is permitted. Teaming is permitted, even collusion is permitted. But we, 4 PC FFA players, as a comunity, created some kind of informal gentlemen`s agreement. And from that perspective this game violate our "rules". But if you search deeper, you can find something like this post:

"

#25Sep 7, 2018 

I didn't insist that "you must take Q, not N". But if you don't take someone's Q and repeat the same (don't use your opportunity to take his R, Q, N) many times, then you highly likely in a team with that guy. Or you are a very bad player. It is a sign of preteaming and can be used by chess.com support staff to detect cheaters.

If we don't mention it in the rules, we should mention it somewhere else."

Balca

I quoted Bab Yagun, #25 from "What is allowed and not allowed", Sep 7, 2018.

 
reasons
Skeftomilos wrote:
reasons wrote:

I think the rules forbid precisely what is made explicit: you cannot employ prearranged teaming, nor teaming via chat during play. For more clarity, we might want to ask Martin0 what else, if anything, is covered under those rules.

 

@reasons in this phase we are trying to clarify the rules. Rehearsing the exact same wording doesn't make it much clearer. The term "teaming" is disputed right now. Do you have any idea about what this term might mean? If you do, please share it with us. If you don't, then you can't claim that you understand the rule, in which case you are not in a position to offer an informed opinion about the issue at hand: Was the game #379049 played by the rules, or some players gained an advantage by violating the rules? Please don't obfuscate the matter by stating your opinion about what the rules should be. We are talking about what the rules are right now.

What is unclear? Do you understand what  constitutes pre-arranged teaming, or teaming in chat? I would think that this is rather self-explanatory. 

As far as I can tell, the game in question was played by the rules.

Balca

Another definition, by Martin0, Apr 22, 2018

"In free for all, the game should be played as free for all. You may not "team up" with another player to gain an unfair advantage. Neither prearranged teaming or teaming up through chat during the game is allowed. If you want to play as a team, then you should play the teams variant. All this said, you don't need to be afraid of taking advantage of a player checking another player or similar things. That is not teaming and just part of the game." 

 

But there comes a question. It`s a definition or a rule? Does a definition impose o rule?

Skeftomilos

@Balca you quoted from two different topics.

1) What is allowed and not allowed. (Discussion)
2) Rules

The first one is a discussion, not the rules.
The second one is the rules, not a definition.

Do you still believe that the rules are clear and good? Do you still stand for what you wrote in #68?
«According to the general rules, no violation occurred in the game #379049. Everything is permitted. Teaming is permitted, even collusion is permitted.»

Skeftomilos
reasons wrote:

Do you understand what  constitutes pre-arranged teaming, or teaming in chat? I would think that this is rather self-explanatory. 

@reasons I would appreciate if you could provide an explanation. It may seem self-explanatory to you, but I have personally been continuously asked for a definition of "teaming", and not all people are happy with my definition (#36).

Balca

I will appreciate if an admin will answer my question. BabYagun_-__-__-___- ? e4bc4qh5qf7 ?

Skeftomilos
Balca wrote:

What can you say about this game: #220221 ?

This question was not directed to me, but I reviewed this game out of curiosity. It is a case of violating the rules by teaming up through chat. Without the chat, the teaming would be almost undetectable because it lasted for just a couple of moves (27 & 28). But the chat message is clear, and it relates perfectly with the situation on the board.

Blue: теперь на красного)

(translation by Google Translate)
Blue: now on red)

BabYagun

@Balca,

But there comes a question. It`s a definition or a rule? Does a definition impose o rule?

You copied Martin0's text from this topic: https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/rules-7 The name of that topic is "Rules".

But:

1. That topic is on a club forum, not on "Rules" tab of 4PC UI. A player should join the club to read that text.

2. That is a definition, but it is not clear enough, because it requires other definitions (for example, what is "an unfair advantage"?) to be interpreted.

So, we currently use a "gentlemen agreement", as you said.

It is going to change soon. We want FFA and Teams to be different games. So, we need to impose anti-teaming measures in the nearest 4PC updates. And that Oleg's game may become an illustrative example of "how FFA should not be played".

Skeftomilos

@BabYagun judging from the responses in this thread so far I was under the impression that chess.com was moving towards the direction of removing all artificial restrictions from FFA 4PC, and allowing it to become a wild game of diplomacy where anything goes. And teaming, and coordinating, and suggesting moves through chat, and begging for points, and what not. Sincerely, it may be a better option than imposing rules that cannot be enforced because of lack of will, or personnel, or both. Having half the players playing by the rules, and the other half cheating, being reported and remaining unpunished, is a bad-bad situation.

BabYagun

Do not judge by reading this thread, please.

spacebar

perhaps also read the first part of my post #43 again. My opinion on "teaming" is my personal opinion as a player, and does not represent anything official in any way.

reasons
Skeftomilos wrote:
reasons wrote:

Do you understand what  constitutes pre-arranged teaming, or teaming in chat? I would think that this is rather self-explanatory. 

@reasons I would appreciate if you could provide an explanation. It may seem self-explanatory to you, but I have personally been continuously asked for a definition of "teaming", and not all people are happy with my definition (#36).

I feel that it's rather self-explanatory:

  • Pre-arranged teaming is coordination which is planned and communicated between two or more players prior to a match and subsequently employed. 
  • Teaming in chat is coordination between two or more players which involves move suggestions and strategic agreements in the chat during a match.

These are the activities which amount to "teaming up to gain an unfair advantage" that are prohibited by Martin0's rules. If anything else was intended, it was not made explicit nor obviously implied. Accordingly, unless the coordination in this game was actually the result of pre-arranged agreements, it is simply not the case that the rules were broken as stated in Martin0's post. 

Skeftomilos

@reasons thanks for your answer. I can see that we agree that teaming = coordination. But beyond that our interpretation of the rule is completely different. Lets quote the rule once again, splitted in sentences.

#1 In free for all, the game should be played as free for all.
#2 You may not "team up" with another player to gain an unfair advantage.
#3 Neither prearranged teaming or teaming up through chat during the game is allowed.
#4 If you want to play as a team, then you should play the teams variant.
#5 All this said, you don't need to be afraid of taking advantage of a player checking another player or similar things.
#6 That is not teaming and just part of the game.

Your interpretation: Teaming up is generally allowed, with the exception of two forms of teaming, prearranged and through chat, that are not allowed.

My interpretation: Teaming up is never allowed, in neither of its two possible forms. It is implied that any other form of teaming, if it exists, is not allowed either.

Game #379049 showed a third form of teaming, that we could call "teaming through trust" or "teaming without communication". I think we will agree that this form of teaming is practically indistinguishable from prearranged teaming, because proving prearrangement is impossible in most cases. So in the case of your interpretation of the rule, disallowing prearranged teaming doesn't make much sense. There are also other hints that make your interpretation less likely, but I agree that it cannot be ruled out with 100% certainty.

I guess that @Martin0 who authored the rules will be very disappointed that his attempt to make things clear about what is and is not allowed in 4 Player Chess (4PC), created even more confusion than before.

reasons
Skeftomilos wrote:

@reasons thanks for your answer. I can see that we agree that teaming = coordination. But beyond that our interpretation of the rule is completely different. Lets quote the rule once again, splitted in sentences.

#1 In free for all, the game should be played as free for all.
#2 You may not "team up" with another player to gain an unfair advantage.
#3 Neither prearranged teaming or teaming up through chat during the game is allowed.
#4 If you want to play as a team, then you should play the teams variant.
#5 All this said, you don't need to be afraid of taking advantage of a player checking another player or similar things.
#6 That is not teaming and just part of the game.

Your interpretation: Teaming up is generally allowed, with the exception of two forms of teaming, prearranged and through chat, that are not allowed.

I do not agree that teaming = coordination. Regardless, my central issue with your interpretation is in the separation of the points. I understand #3 to be a clarification of, not a rule in addition to #2. On its own, #2 is entirely useless as a rule without the sort of clarification #3 provides.

We can stand around and assume that #2 is intended to mean something in addition to #3 and make guesses about what this might be. However, without actual clarification of the rules, the only explicit and actionable rule is expressed in #3. I see no point in continuing to impose our interpretations on statements which are arguably clarified already.

 

You say, "I think we will agree that this form of teaming is practically indistinguishable from prearranged teaming", but this is in error. If we are to uncover prearranged teaming, it is because we discover those prearrangements, not merely the moves then played. The fact that the moves played might have also been played by players who prearranged to team is not itself proof of prearranged teaming, since those same moves might've been played without said prearrangements.

You conclude, "So in the case of your interpretation of the rule, disallowing prearranged teaming doesn't make much sense.", but this is false on its face. The rule prohibits prearranged teaming; this is not merely "my interpretation".