Club Redesign: Five questions to @jdcannon

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Avatar of Martin_Stahl
Kookaburrra wrote:

Like sorting members by rating in clubs. That took a long time to convince here that it was useful and we need it by daily rating order and the first fix was wrong. Some of them weren’t even sorted. Do they test?? Doesn’t take Einstein to see some of those members were not sorted at all.
Now we have events being able to be seen in all clubs . But those in join not in my rating range in other clubs are invisible still. Needs another fix. Was it tested? Seems like we are doing the testing.

The changes are tested and there was a sort, it just wasn't what was expected by members. Even the one where it was showing the different higher ratings on the page (the player's highest rating), was being sorted by one of the ratings in code

Avatar of Kookaburrra
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Kookaburrra wrote:

Like sorting members by rating in clubs. That took a long time to convince here that it was useful and we need it by daily rating order and the first fix was wrong. Some of them weren’t even sorted. Do they test?? Doesn’t take Einstein to see some of those members were not sorted at all.
Now we have events being able to be seen in all clubs . But those in join not in my rating range in other clubs are invisible still. Needs another fix. Was it tested? Seems like we are doing the testing.

The changes are tested and there was a sort, it just wasn't what was expected by members. Even the one where it was showing the different higher ratings on the page (the player's highest rating), was being sorted by one of the ratings in code

The members on the last pages weren’t sorted at all.


One of our admins clubs with about 18 members. Last 2 players not in order. I don’t think we expected that kind of order.

Anyway pleased it is fixed. Haven’t found any problems. So all good I think.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl
Kookaburrra wrote:

The members on the last pages weren’t sorted at all.

One of our admins clubs with about 18 members. Last 2 players not in order.

There was/is something about those members where they were considered unrated by the site functions on the rating sort being used to determine the highest. So all unrated were at the end.

I don't know the specifics of why they were considered unrated just that they were.

Avatar of Kookaburrra
Martin_Stahl wrote:
Kookaburrra wrote:

The members on the last pages weren’t sorted at all.

One of our admins clubs with about 18 members. Last 2 players not in order.

There was/is something about those members where they were considered unrated by the site functions on the rating sort being used to determine the highest. So all unrated were at the end.

I don't know the specifics of why they were considered unrated just that they were.

Yes very bizarre.

Avatar of Tournamentix

Update from comment #717 (and linked now in comment #1 to be easily found):

A – Questions without answers

Five questions to @jdcannon

  1. What did you assume in February, "how clubs work and feel"?
  2. What do you know now, "how clubs work and feel"?
  3. You've stated, the current club design "kind of sucks": What are the main problems?
  4. Which innovations and novelties in the club redesign will manage a better experience now?
  5. Several club admins are complaining about a lot of difficulties for their clubs and for themselves. What will you do next to better this situation? (@Tournamentix, all #1)

Other general questions

  1. (Preparation of club redesign) Who and when did they ask for feedback? (@Kookaburrra, #282)
  2. Did they publish the results of the interviews or surveys or whatever they did? (@Kookaburrra, #285)
  3. Is there a single person here who thinks this whole process has been even satisfactorily (or adequately)? 
  4. Why doesn't it work at least as well as the previous version by the time it's released? (@stephen_33, both #294)
  5. Curious ... what the heck was bad with the current/past version that needed fixing? (@Cornfed, #364)
  6. A never-ending list of problems which are not getting solved yet new introductions with new problems are being introduced. Is this a merry go round in which we cannot get off?? (@Commando-Poppins, #391)
  7. I'm still not clear about what the problem is that needs fixing? (@stephen_33, #458)
  8. Shouldn't club admins/coaches be allowed to message members of their clubs without being monitored by Chess.com automated muting filters? (@Tournamentix, #546)
  9. Is Chess Clash the "other" project or is the project, which urgently needs club redesign's code still unreleased? (#708)
  10. Did anybody who actually uses clubs design this (transmitted by @surfsnook, #715)
  11. Perhaps they could report to their supervisors - whomever gave the direction to 'make it better'  (we haven't actually heard from them, have we)? (@Cornfed, #758)
  12. Will someone remind Danny Rensch about his still missing answer on clubs' situation? (#876)

Club settings

  1. Clubs have already made their decision in the current club design, for which kind of activities they want to get challenges. All this information looks to be intentionally lost. Is this Chess.com's way towards a better user experience? (@Tournamentix, #494)
    Answer with lost end in comment #645.
  2. How exactly helps reducing privacy options to create a better user experience? (#549)
  3. Is this a bug with the redesign or a "feature" (@ImperfectAge, #555 referring to #549)
  4. Is it really that difficult to add some options instead of creating one club design for ten thousands of very different clubs? (#646)

Challenges

  1. If you click on the link of an accepted challenge, you get some "Resource not found" message. Wouldn't it be friendlier to users redirecting them to the upcoming match? (#673)
  2. (Switching back to Multi Club Arena challenges) Is there some chance to see this fixed? (#679)
  3. (match challenges) Would someone be so kind and let me know, which advantages the modified design offers? (#750)
  4. Could someone please explain the advantage of these additional steps (selecting daily match, confirmation of selection, filling in club names, unselecting auto-start) in the new challenging procedure to us?
  5. What exactly is the advantage of suppressing access to a previous challenge and its parameters? (both #864)
  6. (Workflow showing more steps, #864) Would be great, if we could come back to the the previous situation, wouldn't it? (#866)
  7. ("Hybrid" shown challenges) What's the problem to fix this? Like to remind comment #673 about several other – all still unfixed (!) – points concerning match challenges. (#868)

Divers:

  1. Can the club admins have the ability to choose which to show on the homepage by default between notes and forums? (@MasterMatthew52, #618)
  2. (New placement for country and location) Where might it be useful ... other than above description?
  3. What about the important problem, that Chess.com is causing to club admins for their usual communication with members? (both #646)
  4. (Some clubs show members, others don't) How can I check the actual situation for my clubs? How can I change this, if it doesn't fit any longer? (#840)
  5. (Events' statistics) Having played 768 daily matches and have won 432 of them gives a useful information, while have accepted 118 challenges to Multi Club Arenas and have won 0 of these Arenas doesn't look to be similar useful, does it? Why should both be summed up?
  6. "Average participation" looks to be calculated with numbers from live matches, daily matches and vote chess games. These numbers for different activities are surely useful. What's the intended value of an average calculation? (both #846)
  7. (List of upcoming matches in other clubs) As far as I can see, this list should show all their events independent from my rating (as the previous version does), shouldn't it? (#858)
  8. (Current events ranked ascending on each page) Would be great to know, what's intended with this update? (#862)

B – Announcements without known follow-up:

  1. Our design is revisiting the forums based on your feedback; I will share update as soon we have it. (@jdcannon, #94, July 6)
  2. The customizable home pages and clubs events from home pages were temporarily removed to reduce the load on our servers so that we could the site afloat while growth was so out of control. As soon as we can handle the load, they will return. (@jdcannon, #95, July 6)
    Additional question: It's nearly tow months now, what makes this task so difficult? (#646)
  3. (Top players list) I didn't mean to imply it was going away. It's certainly not. (@jdcannon, #424, August 18)
  4. (Matches, which don't start due to unfulfilled parameters) I propose the match pages continues to exist, but is simply marked as cancelled. (@jdcannon, #456, August 20)
  5. Will you bring the percentage of completion as the proven ranking for current matches back? Yes. (@jdcannon, #535, August 23)
  6. (Club settings) Adding back granularity (@jdcannon, #645, August 31)
  7. (Missing information (no logo, no player settings, incomplete registration info for all matches: Would like to know, what exactly the improvement towards a better user experience is?) Addressing; back with a designer to find a better solution. (@jdcannon, #645, August 31)
  8. (Registered players for the oppossing team) Will be added (@jdcannon, #645, August 31)
  9. (We would come closer to the previous level of quality by filling in club names during challenging and including the min. number of games, the content of "Quick description" and making club names "clickable" again. Is there some chance?) More to come. (@jdcannon, #682, Sept. 1)
  10. (wrong match results) Will address. (@jdcannon, #693, Sept. 1)
  11. (filtering current events) It's coming. Just need some time. (@jdcannon, #869, Sept. 8)
  12. We intend to remember your last challenge settings so that when you visit the challenge page again, everything will be filled with your last challenge settings which should save you quite a few of these steps. We will again auto populate of the event as before. Additionally, intend to have the option for reoccurring events for at least some event types so that you can entirely skip having to create weekly arenas for example. (@jdcannon, #870, Sept. 8)


Went through 170 comments to make this update: one of the announcements could be deleted, very few questions have been answered, had to add another twelve unanswered questions: What are we doing here? Doesn't look, that we are taken seriously, does it? 

Avatar of Tournamentix

Would like to see (at least) three examples of instructions in current tickets which

  • are based on our feedback about problems for clubs, their admins and leagues, 
  • are related to something other than fixing, what has been broken with redesign and
  • will create a better situation than the previous one with the good, old club design.

Seen, what we've gotten until now, I'm no longer sure, if there is much more work in progress than fixing, what has been broken by the project itself.

Would also like to get finally some general information, what was and is intended to achieve with this project ... How will it make situation of clubs better? How will it reduce the negative impact on our clubs caused e.g. by unreliable notifications, inappropriate communication conditions, uncompleted work like for Multi Club Arenas, long lasting deteriorations as for vote chess games or intentionally introduced difficulties like voided home pages?

Avatar of tigerchess2022

If this gets 1000 comments we'll get our old one back!

Avatar of Tournamentix

From this newly opened forum in Chess.com Beta: https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/how-to-check-beta-features

Avatar of MasterMatthew52

Does anyone here have a "test" club I can throw some test match challenges at without being annoying?

Avatar of Kookaburrra

Sure

https://www.chess.com/club/kookaburrra

I’m the only member.

Avatar of Kookaburrra

You should consider creating your own. I have 3. Admins use them for training.

Avatar of MasterMatthew52
Kookaburrra wrote:

You should consider creating your own. I have 3. Admins use them for training.

Thanks. That's what I'm doing happy.png

Avatar of Tournamentix

Not sure, that notifications are reliable these days.
Here's something, which I've seen already several times:

Something must be wrong: Either the shown number or the shown notifications.

Avatar of surfsnook

I just posted an important note on my team page. It seems like nobody read it. I fear it got lost amongst the old, outdated announcements, obscure forum posts, and other clutter. The team page should be fun, friendly, and relevant with current notes prominently displayed and easily read.

The second most important item for the team page is new, upcoming matches, with each team’s picture/avatar, showing the number of players from each team who have so far joined the match. (Why was the number of players from each team who have joined removed? How else do players know if their team needs them?)

Please remove the clutter and make the team page fun, friendly, and relevant again by focusing on teammates’ notes to each other, and upcoming new matches showing both teams’ player count. 

Thank you from a frustrated admin of 12 teams.

Avatar of Martin_Stahl

Many clubs have different things they consider more important. Ideally something more like the personal homepage with widgets that could be enable or disabled, moved up/down, would be the best solution long term.

That way clubs could remove anything from the homepage they don't want and have the most important things to them in focus, everything else wold be accessible via the links in the sidebar. Not sure that something that will happen but what's best for your club (generic your) isn't necessarily going to be best for another club.

Avatar of Tournamentix

@Martin_Stahl: Mostly the worst thing one can imagine is forcing the same rigid structure to all clubs. What has arrived with club redesign is an attack of the diversity of our clubs.

It's quite easy to understand, that customizable start pages would be the most friendly and appropriate approach Chess.com could have chosen: They have opted for the opposite.

Avatar of Cornfed
Martin_Stahl wrote:

Many clubs have different things they consider more important. Ideally something more like the personal homepage with widgets that could be enable or disabled, moved up/down, would be the best solution long term.

That way clubs could remove anything from the homepage they don't want and have the most important things to them in focus, everything else wold be accessible via the links in the sidebar. Not sure that something that will happen but what's best for your club (generic your) isn't necessarily going to be best for another club.

If I may, that makes sense...only (as you say) "Not sure that something will happen"...and that's often the problem with this redesign - it looks for all the world that no one here/commenting from chess.com has a good idea of just what chess.com is actually working toward.

A 'better experience' is just a phrase. Those who administer their clubs look like they are being blindsided by things every day. I have to think they need to be hearing from....whomever made the decision to undertake this redesign. That person might not want to step into the line of fire...but really, they should 'man up' and do so.

Avatar of MasterMatthew52

Here are my issues with matches - https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/club-redesign-12-issues-feedback-on-team-matches

Avatar of Tournamentix
MasterMatthew52 wrote:

.

Thanks. Seeing you finding 12 issues simply confirms, that there are too many, doesn't it?

A redesign should be about creating improvements for clubs, shouldn't it?
Counting 12 issues (personally I still count and have listed a few more) shows, that most likely priorities of the project were and are wrong and far away from daily workflow, aren't they?

What have we club admins together all done wrong, to be treated in such an unfriendly manner and all this still for an unknown reason?

Avatar of Tournamentix

Referring to comment #897:

Just two simple questions: Why should we wait for Chess.com to explain changes introduced by club redesign to more than one hundred thousand clubs with several ten thousands admins?
Was there any announcement or at least a forum, where I can get some general information about this attack on the diversity of our clubs?