My Recent Discussion with Anastasakis, in brief.

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Marignon

Anastasakis  

5th Cities World Cup 2015 - 1/8 FINAL - RESULTS (soon)

Players 8+, Challenges on 29- 30 March 2015, matches on 7-9 April

Rasht vs Thessaloniki: 

Moscow vs Beograd: 

Singapore vs Istanbul: 

St. Petersburg vs London: 

Yerevan vs Bordeaux: 

Zagreb vs Bucharest: 

Tabriz vs Budapest: 

Kyiv vs Bangkok:

Waiting for final confirmation in the next days


Marignon 

 

Could you explain in detail why Istanbul wins?

I don't think so.

1. Actual score 8 - 7

2. Score recounted for cheating 6.5 - 8.5

3. Score recounted for flags 6.5 - 6.5

4. Who has more individual victories (in first ten tables)

Istanbul - 1(T2) + 2(T5) + 1(T7) + 2(T8) = 6

Phoenix - 2 (T1) + 2 (T3) + 2 (T6) = 6

5. Who has more individual victories with black pieces (in first ten tables)

Istanbul -  T5 + T7 + T8 = 3

Phoenix - T1 + T3 + T6 = 3

6 Who has more individual victories with black pieces (in all tables except the 5 last tables)

Istanbul = 0

Phoenix T1 + T3 = 2

Phoenix wins

Cutoff rules are somewhat absurd, but even such absurd rule need to be applied properly.

 

FORAA  

so let's come back to the rules.

for the third table our cheater has a draw and a win. the win is just deleted and the draw is counted as lost. so opponent gets a half point extra. the score comes to 6,5-7,5.

for the fourth table our player has timeouted and doesn't get any point. the opponents points are deleted due flag rule. so the score comes to 6,5-5,5 in this way.

Marignon 

Yet,  it seems that I am right

Please, look here.

http://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/5th-cities-cup-2015---participation-round?page=10

My post #189, where I quote rules applicable 4 months ago:

One player will not be able to play for two different teams in the cup for the same year, but he can belong to several teams and play other games. If such case occurs in amatch, the winning games of that player will be annulled. In case a player is disqualified by chess.com or closed acount he loses all his games. In case though the opponent is on timeout the opponent does not get any winning points.

You see? It is not my own statement. If it were mine, I would not have quoted the statement about timeouts exempt, which I don't support. 


Anastasakis  

 

Hi Marignon, your contribution to this tournament has till now be only raising problems. More, I trusted you ro run Vote Chess and you kicked out Teams Athens from Vote Chess by yourself without any reason. Do you think you can continue running the Vote Chess? Another person will be soon in charge. You had your chance and you spoiled it.

According to the actual rule, Istanbul is the winner Smile

Marignon 

"you kicked out Teams Athens from Vote Chess by yourself without any reason."

Anyone can look at this game http://www.chess.com/votechess/game?id=60176, see how it was "discussed" in your group and understand why I did that.

"Do you think you can continue running the Vote Chess? Another person will be soon in charge."

I stated many times in Vote Chess thread that I will not run the next season, because to stop vote chess cheating is nearly impossible in this situation, especially with such city admins as you.

 

Anastasakis  

The pairings of the 1/8 final are under final confirmation due to the draw of the match Istanbul - Team Phoenix. Since the rule is not very clear on this point (does it counts as blacks victory the points due to an account closed by chess.com player?), I have to consider that these points finally count and the match is a draw. In that case the rule is:

"If a draw again, each team assigns a player of the specific match. They play 2 live chess games within a week. If draw again, the teams assign a different player and they play live chess within 5 days etc."

The 2 teams must assign here the latest on March 21 the players and their 2 games will take place on Sunday March 22Good luck!


Marignon 

 

So, I was right. 

Any excuse from the TD?

PS. The extra match is an OK decision in this case. 

Marignon 

 

Anastasakis написал:

Hi Marignon, your contribution to this tournament has till now be only raising problems. 

By the way, this statement is extremely rude and false. Among other things, I have personally invited more than 10 teams that currently play in WCL and CWC in these competitions.

My concern is that every team plays in good conditions. This means accurate post-match calculations, which you can't do. This means timely messaging and publishing schedule, which you don't do. This means openly discussing concerns and rules, which you obstruct. 

I now see the "compromise" for the flag rule

From 2016: 
foreign country flag (intl flag counts as a foreign flag) can not be more than 25% in all tables. If more flags, all of extra flags matches will be declared as lost. However, a game lost by time won't gain a point.

Who has voted for 25%? Nobody. Who supported that? Nobody. You mock at team admins who participated at the voting.

So, I start thinking that you are hopeless and I have invited people in a wrong competition.  


 

 

Marignon
Marignon: Good job!

Yet there is a result that I don't understand. Maybe there are more.

 

Istanbul +1 vs Stockholm +3: http://www.chess.com/groups/team_match?id=474508- Why not a draw? Istanbul - 4 Stockholm 5, but there is no winning advantage




68 minutes ago ·

Anastasakis

I double checked it yesterday (cutoff day) and Stockholm wins. On table 3 in the non finished match, Stockholm's player wins!



34 minutes ago ·

Marignon

Anastasakis wrote:

I double checked it yesterday (cutoff day) and Stockholm wins. On table 3 in the non finished match, Stockholm's player wins!

Let's clarify it step by step. 

What is the current match score? (I don't think it was different yesterday).

4 points for Istanbul and 5 for Stockholm? (after we recount for closed accounts)



15 minutes ago ·

Anastasakis

On table 3 in the non finished match, Stockholm's player wins!

http://www.chess.com/echess/analysis?id=105072096#

 



a few minutes ago ·
Marignon

Anastasakis wrote:

On table 3 in the non finished match, Stockholm's player wins!

http://www.chess.com/echess/analysis?id=105072096#

Some unfinished games were adjudged. OK.

The problem is that adjudgement is not mentioned anywhere in the rules.

And there is also a question if it was applied consistently i.e. in all unfinished games or only in this match.

Marignon

stoker68

how about sending out an alert for each round, like every other tourny on the site does. I'm an admin of a lot of groups and don't always have time to keep up

Anastasakis

The alert was published in the forum. If you mean a personnal alert to each team admin, I am afraid that this takes a lot of time.

We can discuss with the admins of our group to publish the alerts not only in the appropriate forum but in the News as well.

You can always try to persuade Glasgow to play officially the match.

Marignon

Normally alerts should contain the list of team pairs, which play and scheduled dates.

Your alerts don't. And this is just one of many aspects in which this competition is mismanaged.

As Greece admin your receive alerts from World League admins. THIS is the example to follow.

Marignon

I copy current WCL rules here (just in case)


Updated Rules  of World Cities League (October 2014)

The World CITIES League (WCL) is a team match tournament between city teams on chess.com.  The main purpose is to give a chance to players to play against people from other cities in friendly competition.  All players are asked to choose one team to play for at the beginning of the year.

One single team per CITY is invited to this tournament. The best ranked ones on the team match leaderboard are invited in first hand.

All teams should mentionne a city in their name. If a regional team is registered first then no other city in this region can participate. A single city inside a regional team can replace the region team when the city team has at least a year of formation and if the single city team has at least the 1/3 of the members of the regional one.

The teams are inveted to mention in their description: This group represents <City name> in the site’s official World Cities League (WCL) and the Cities World Cup (CWC)


Thanks to yneves for implementing this great website!: http://chessleagues.com/

- A group of at least 10 members can access the league

- The minimum number of players allowed per game in order to be valid is, for the preliminary rounds, 8 for the 1st Division, 5 for the 2nd Division and 4 for the 3rd Division (from 2016 it will be 10, 6, 5 respectively and 4+ players for Division 4). In case a match starts with less players for a team, the opponent team starts the match with extra winning points for the missing games (ex. if 2 players are missing from team A, team B starts with +4points).

- Vacation are allowed, with the recommendation that it uses as little possible

- Time to challenge the group is 7-10 days, then the group must be locked. All teams must have locked their teams at the latest by official start date of the round. If not locked, it will be penalized according to already established rules.

- Teams on the left side should send a challenge, but also teams from the right side can do that for them, if they have not received any challenge.

- System that we will play in the league is a single round-robin in groups and the top teams advance to the next round(s).

For Division 1 and from 2015 the 16 teams are divided in two groups A and B of 8 teams each. The matches in each group are played as a 7 round-robin.
At the final stage the teams standing 1-4 in groups A and B form the championship group and the teams standing 5-8  in groups A and B form the relegation group. 
The matches in each group are played as a round-robin, but those matches that were already played at the group stage are not played. Thus, at the final stage each team plays only with 4 teams that were in the other group at the group stage. 
The points scored at the group and the final stage are summed. 
The teams in the championship group play to determine the champion and the teams that take places from 2 to 8 in the final standings.
The teams to determine the teams that take places from 9 to 16 in the final standings. 
The teams that take places from 14 to 16 will be relegated.

For Division 2 and from 2015 the tournament begins with 2 groups (A and B) of 9 teams each. The 3 top teams of each group advance and play A1 vs B3, B1 vs A3 and A2 vs B2. The 3 winners advance to the 1st Division. The 3 bottom teams of each group (6 teams in total) play A7 vs B9, B7 vs A9 and A8 va B8. The 3 losers move down to Division 3 + 1more team of the winning teams that got the less points in the Phase 1 of the tournament. In case of equal points the team with less victories and if equal again with less individual players victories in Phase 1 goes down to Division 3. So 4 teams in total goes to Div. 3.

3  top teams of DIVISION 2 move up to the 1st DIVISION.

teams at the bottom of DIVISION 1 move down to the 2nd DIVISION.

top teams of DIVISION 3 move up to the 2nd DIVISION.

teams at the bottom of DIVISION 2 move down to the 3rd DIVISION.

top teams of DIVISION 4 move up to the 3rd DIVISION.

teams at the bottom of DIVISION 3 move down to the 4th DIVISION.

Min Players (from 2016) for Division 110 players and for 2nd phase 12 players for the bottom teams and 15 players for the top teams; for Division 26 players and for 2nd phase 8 players; for Division 35 players and for 2nd phase 6 players; for Division 44 players and for 2nd phase5 players;.

- If the teams in the group equal to the number of points we would apply the elimination system:

1) Who has more team victories

2) the result between the teams and if it is a draw then,

3) Who has more individual victories (in first 10 tables with all teams in the group)(from 2016 it will be 12 first tables)

4) Who has more individual victories with black pieces (in first 10 tables with all teams in the group) (from 2016 it will be 12 first tables)

All matches which had not be finished on the sheduled day (60 days after the match has started or on the cutoff day if one) and a player get more than 3-point advantage on his opponent, he would win. With only 3 points advantage or less the match would bedeclared a draw.

- League should be played out on an annual basis

- If a player is kicked out for cheating  or acount closed by Chess. com or multi-player, all of its matches will be declared as not played if he won them and lost if he lost or draw, but his team will not be further penalized. However, a game lost by time won't gain a point.

- The annual tournaments start no later than February 1st of each year.

- One player will not be able to play for two different teams in the league for the same year, but he can belong to several teams and play other games. If such case occurs in amatch, all of its matches will be declared as not played if he won them and lost if he lost or draw. However, a game lost by time won't gain a point.

A foreign country flag (intl flag counts as a foreign flag) can not be more than 1 in the first 10 tables and more than 3 in the first 25 tables and not more than 5 in all tables. If more flags, all of extra flags matches will be declared as not played if the player won them and lost if he lost or draw. However, a game lost by time won't gain a point.

From 2016: 
foreign country flag (intl flag counts as a foreign flag) can not be more than 25% in all tables. If more flags, all of extra flags matches will be declared as lost. However, a game lost by time won't gain a point.

- Scoring system is W: 3; D: 2; L: 1; who not accept the challenge or not send a challenge (-1); who accepted the challenge but did not get enough players to start the match (0). The opponent of the team that does not accept a challenge or does not have the required number of players gets 3 points.

-Penalty for each day of delay lock team is  -1 points, starting within 4 days. After 7 days the team loses the match with 0 points, and 0 points for first 5 table if the team enters the system due to the elimination of equal points.

- New round in the main groups stage will begin every 1 to 4 weeks

- Before teams lock their rosters are team admins allowed to remove any player from their team or the match who has a 20% or greater timeout percentage, or whose account is closed, or is suspected or detected multi-team-player. The removed players can not be though more than 10% of the total players (can be removed the 10th, the 20th and the 21th and so on. Can not be removed the 9th or the 19th as second removed). If more removed players, all of extra removed players will be declared as not played and the opponent team gets +2 points.


All challenges must be filled out as follows:

- Match name: 2014WCL R1: Team 1 vs Team 2Example 2014WCL R1: Toronto vs Paris

- Starting Position: Standard chess

- Starting position: Standard starting position

- Days per move: 3

- Rating range: Open

- Players: 4+ or 5+ or 8+ or 12+ or 15+

- Concurrent games per opponent: 2

- Auto Start: No

- Rated: Yes

Adjustements on the rules may published on the group's forums.

The teams are allowed and encouraged to insert following text into their profile description: “This team represent [city or regional name] in the World Cities League.”, and to copy these rules into the team forums, so that all participants are aware of them.

All participating city teams agree with these rules.

GOOD GAMES!

Marignon
Marignon

About Summer play-offs:

This issue shows that the competition formula in divisions 2, 3 and 4 is very poor. The fate of a team cannot depend on only 1 match and on counting of results per board. Two cutoffs cannot fit in 1 year.

Marignon

After seeing the groups in division 1 2016

Maybe I should keep calm here but I just can't.

The groups are tremendously inequal.

3 out of 4 strongest teams in 2015 are stuck in group B, together with Rasht and Tabriz or Budapest.

Marignon
  • Bland_Joe

    Yes, there is a big different betwen the group A and B... But this is not bad for Moscow. ;-)

  • Marignon

    Joe, you argue for the profit of your group, I agrue when my consciousness tells me to do so.

    That person will not bribe me with a weaker group.

Marignon

I should say that I keep a copy of WCL rules for record because Anastasakis is known for changing them without notice. And in this season it is clearly 10 not 12 tables. 

 

- If the teams in the group equal to the number of points we would apply the elimination system:

1) Who has more team victories

2) the result between the teams and if it is a draw then,

3) Who has more individual victories (in first 10 tables with all teams in the group)(from 2016 it will be 12 first tables)

4) Who has more individual victories with black pieces (in first 10 tables with all teams in the group) (from 2016 it will be 12 first tables)


But the big problem is not the number of tables, but the fact that the outcome of only 1 match measures the team's performance during the whole season. In division one I  could suggest and make the TD accept the system where all team results played during the year count. Divisions 2,3 and 4 still suffer.

Marignon

http://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/rule-for-draw?ncc=1#first_new_comment

A round-robin tournament would sufficiently limit Anastasakis's ability to abuse his position, which he does when distributes teams into groups and when calculates results during cut-offs (examples are numerous). Two cut-offs during one year are too much to have the matches played normally.

Marignon

Anastasakis

We discuss here issues of how to improve the tournament. Marignon, once again, is the agent provocateur. How can you discuss with someone who has build his own tournament and who always post in this tournament such comments against me without any raison, just to provoke. Enough is enough.

 

Marignon

Anastasakis, I do not discuss my tournament here. I try to improve this one, where my team also participates.

>such comments against me without any raison

Really so? Last time when I commented about group distribution you've had to change it. So I was right.

Remember, it is not against you personally, but for greater transparency and democracy. Btw, do you like democracy?

Marignon

My comments can be read here. They do not contain personal attacks http://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/my-recent-discussion-with-anastasakis-in-brief

Marignon

I agree with all NOPI's suggestions concerrning format and cut-offs.

I wish to add that 25% flags rule was not supported by any admins. On the contrary, most of them they disapproved of it. So:

1) It was not introduced in a legitimate manner and should be considered void even for this season. The old rule 1 player per 10 boards should be restored.

2) A wide list of exceptions is necessary: Swedish and Danish flags for Copenhagen, Azeri and Iranian flags for Tabriz, Canadian and Martinica flags for Quebec, Russian and Ukrainian for Sevastopol, maybe equity of Greek and Cyprus flags, too.

Marignon

I saw this discussion only now and this approach is hilarious.

The 5th cities cup started with 1(or 2) per 10 boards rule and it should continue to the end with that rule.

Rasht players on boards 3-9 should be penalized.

Marignon

First, nobody voted for 25% rule. You imposed it by force.

Second, it is year 2015 now. And 5th cup was started and played until now by 1 per 10 rule. It is impossible to change rules during the competition.

Marignon

I was looking at division 3 and 4 forums and the number of unplayed matches is very huge.

Clearly, being so low the teams lose motivation as it will take them too much time (several years) to progress anywhere.

Maybe it is high time to discuss if creating 3rd and 4th divisions was a good idea (and I am sure that it was not, and I was (and still am) constantly saying so) and what can be done to improve.

Marignon
  • I should also say that WCL is undermanaged. For example, we don't ever see the group crosstables, the results are published only post-season (no intermediate ones). If you cannot manage one tournament - why start another?

    by Marignon 5 minutes ago Delete

  • The current priority is to form the Tournament Board, to discuss and clean-up the rules.

    by Marignon 8 minutes ago Delete

  • I think that in these conditions the tournament cannot be played now. It is still possible to think it over in 2017.

    by Marignon 9 minutes ago Delete

Marignon

https://www.chess.com/clubs/forum/view/7th-cities-world-cup-2016---18-final

 

I don't understand what Athens is doing in the 1/8 FINAL

 

1/16 FINAL

Poznan - Athens

https://www.chess.com/club/matches/715476

9-9 currently

but

MorphyStyle1 is a cheat banned on the 31st of january.

Athens lost.