Cambridge Springs 1904 chess set

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Avatar of TenaciousE
Perhaps a better way to judge the size of the pieces is to compare them to the size of the clock.
Avatar of JackieMatra

Who can identify the clock in the photograph of Jacques Mieses at Cambridge Springs in 1904 and state its height conclusively?

Avatar of TenaciousE
It is a Waterbury clock and I have one. When I get time, I will measure it and report back.
Avatar of TundraMike

if you are questioning the size of the King used in the tournament, believe me, I saw the real set last Thursday and it is 3 3/4". Don't have to bang it up with the clock. 

 

Avatar of JackieMatra

I am trying to determine the height of the king in the set(s) seen in front of David Janowski and Jacques Mieses in the photographs of them allegedly taken at the Cambridge Springs tournament in 1904, which does not absolutely mean that they are of the set used at the tournament, just overwhelmingly likely that it is. How could one definitely know that a set seen in 2018 is the same as one that was elsewhere 114 years earlier?

Avatar of TenaciousE
JackieMatra wrote:

I am trying to determine the height of the king in the set(s) seen in front of David Janowski and Jacques Mieses in the photographs of them allegedly taken at the Cambridge Springs tournament in 1904, which does not absolutely mean that they are of the set used at the tournament, just overwhelmingly likely that it is. How could one definitely know that a set seen in 2018 is the same as one that was elsewhere 114 years earlier?

The evidence is circumstantial, partially based on the style of the pieces and the fact that the Knight uppers are an exact match.  The standard Knights for that set were a completely different style (see post #31 and #40 of this thread).  The height of the Waterbury clock from the bottom of the wooden base to the top of the front clock face is 4.75".  Looking at the Mieses photo in post #108, it would appear that the height of the King is significantly smaller than the height of the clock, although I would leave it to each individual to make his or her own assessment.

Avatar of TenaciousE

On the main page of this site: http://cs1904.com/ there is a cropped photo showing the Schlechter-Lasker game along with a back view of the clock.  The height of the back of the clock from the bottom of the wooden base to the top of the circular clock frame is just under 5 inches.  Again, this may help assess the height of the pieces in the picture.

Avatar of alleenkatze
JackieMatra wrote:

I am trying to determine the height of the king in the set(s) seen in front of David Janowski and Jacques Mieses in the photographs of them allegedly taken at the Cambridge Springs tournament in 1904, which does not absolutely mean that they are of the set used at the tournament, just overwhelmingly likely that it is. How could one definitely know that a set seen in 2018 is the same as one that was elsewhere 114 years earlier?

 Photographs are taken from the Walter Penn Shipley collection who documented the tournament along with Hermann Helms and Hartwig Cassell for the American Chess Bulletin, so we know these were the chessmen used in Cambridge Springs 1904 in the images.  Are they the same sets that are in the recent pictures?  Well, the likelihood is very high based on the style of chessmen and the information TenaciousE mentions about the Knights themselves.

It is known that the 8 sets of chessmen, boards, clocks and signatures of all the participants were sold as souvenirs.   Information to date has supported these as being the only known sets from the tournament as best that can be determined. 

Any information otherwise or in support of this research would be welcomed.

Avatar of alleenkatze
TenaciousE wrote:
Perhaps a better way to judge the size of the pieces is to compare them to the size of the clock.

You might want to consider the chess board square size as a relative measure although you would guess the squares to be about 2",  it would still be difficult to know exactly.

Avatar of alleenkatze
quadibloc wrote:

This is an interesting thread. Due to reading it, I looked up information about that tournament, and then went on to read about the story of the Rice Gambit.

You may be interested in the ACB v7 1910 that included a supplement to the Rice Gambit

https://books.google.com/books?id=MqBJAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=true

Prof. Isaac L. Rice was a major promoter for Cambridge Springs 1904 and many other events.

Avatar of Bamboo58

The Cambridge set looks really nice. Tempted to buy a set happy.png

Avatar of alleenkatze
goodknightmike wrote:

Quote post #22  here's a pic of Frank Marshall with the Cambridge Spring Set

 

Mike, do you think the knights in post #17 in my last image look like those in this stock photo with Marshall?  If so, I would place my set around 1907 based on the image.

Avatar of alleenkatze
jjrehp wrote:
Just pulled the trigger on this set
It was on backorder which gave me another 35% off!
Just have to wait now

Did you get yours yet?  And how do you like the set?

Avatar of jjrehp
Still not here yet
Avatar of TundraMike

You obviously are clueless about why this thread was started. INot only ia it historic but an original set sells for much more than a Jaques set,  So please do not say more nonsensical comments about this set.  I would take an original 1904 Cambridge Springs set because of the history behind the set. any day over a Jaques set. The last Cambridge Springs set on eBay went for over $1800. I think 8 to 10 sets were made for the tournament. 

Avatar of alleenkatze
Chessopera wrote:

Cambridge Springs chess pieces were crudely-made specially the knights that were messed up completely. That is why Cambridge Springs chess sets were discontinued very soon and there are not many of them around nowadays. 

Although I can understand your dislike for the rough shapes of the Knights seen in many of the sets marketed through the American Chess Company, these Knights were not used during the tournament and evidence shows the uppers were probably based on a cheaper grade of Jaques chessmen.  As for the angular and other Knight designs seen in the thread, these chessmen started appearing around 1860 and were sold until 1915 (well over 50 years) and became less popular than the Staunton style chessmen.   It's still unknown where these were carved.  One can see an evolution in the variations of the Knights, likely to compete with higher grade and more popular sets of the time as the Staunton style was adopted as standard.

Of course everyone has a different opinion, but I personally find these sets enchanting and the chessmen thought to have been used in the tournament, would simply be priceless.   

Avatar of alleenkatze
Chessopera wrote:

Cambridge Springs was a badly made set, the pieces are crude and very similar to cheap French staunton sets made at the same time. ... There is not much history behind it and was used only on one occasion in chess tournament. ... 

Chessbazaar made a copy of Cambridge Sorings and was even struggling to sell it on big sale.

If you have evidence for these being patterned after cheaper French Staunton style chessmen, please present it for discussion.  As for Chess Bazaar's reproduction, it has sold out at least twice and currently on backorder, with a well received introduction for interested buyers.

Vintage Jaques is no doubt the standard for collectors, but these sets are desirable for their moment in time.   

Avatar of Fer8799

Chessopera wrote:

Cambridge Springs was a badly made set, the pieces are crude and very similar to cheap French staunton sets made at the same time and it was therefore discontinued very soon after its first unsuccessful production. The value of a Cambridge Springs set is around $159-$ 200 provided it is in good condition. There is not much history behind it and was used only on one occasion in a chess tournament.

Jaques sets are not comparable to cheap French staunton and one-off cambridge springs, in fact, it is like comparing gold with copper. Jaques sets are the diamond of chess and British Chess Company sets and Richard Whitty’s are the gold. 

Chessbazaar made a copy of Cambridge Springs and was even struggling to sell it on big sale. The knights are particularly badly-made and the rest of the pieces not much better.

where can be bought for this price (159-200) in good condition? could you add any information that support what you say?

Avatar of IpswichMatt

You mean these:

https://www.chessbazaar.com/review/product/list/id/1363/category/117/

I guess the attraction is the historical significance.

Avatar of alleenkatze
IpswichMatt wrote:

You mean these:

https://www.chessbazaar.com/review/product/list/id/1363/category/117/

I guess the attraction is the historical significance.

As are most reproductions.  Note that these are back in stock.