Reproduction and Real Jaques of London Chess Set

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zagryan

I'm not going to take any sides but it is nice to see healthy competition among chess vendors, be it one based in UK, India or even Canada. Competition makes vendors work harder and strive for more and we as chess buyers should welcome whenever vendors improve their offering, be it quality or price wise.


BTW, my first serious chess purchase was a Leningrad set from Official Staunton. I thought it was the official company that made and sold Staunton chess sets. Boy was I wrong! But I still love the set and take it to chess clubs every now and then. In fact, the knight shown in my profile picture is from Official Staunton Leningrad.

Eyechess

Heck, I don’t want to be on any side either.  In fact there really should be no sides like that.

Let’s look at the history of the Staunton design set that first started with Jaques. After all that is what this thread is all about:

1. In 1849 Jaques came out with this design and got Staunton to sign on with it.

2. With different artisans making the sets, the design specifics changed within the same company.  And these design changes kept happening for well over 100 years.  
3. Of course other companies made and sold sets of the same basic Staunton design.  Some were more highly valued while others were cheaper in cost.

4. Back in the early 1990’s, a serious Chess set collector that also was a titled player and an international arbiter, and was an engineer with NASA, Frank Camaratta, decided he was not satisfied at all with the quality of Chess sets being made and sold at that time.

5. So, Frank traveled to India, where the vast majority of Chess sets were made, and contracted with a manufacturer to have consistently high quality sets made.  I know this because told me this, himself back in 1999.  And I remember a time he rejected some work and held the manufacturer to the legal, in India, contract to only be paid for the high quality agreed upon.
6. Frank sold HoS in 2004.  And seemed to kind of leave the scene of set creating for a number of years.

7. And by the year 2000 or so, Frank started recreating sets other than Jaques originals.  This is where we saw sets like the Liberty and Renegade come out with a number of others.

8. Of course other retailers started offering better quality sets to compete with Frank, but honestly there were not that many.

9. In November of 2014 I started coming to this forum where I learned a huge amount from the posters here.  Most of them no longer post here because of the negative postings, like the ones from this Mohan fellow.  He has not been the only bad one but he really is bad here.

10. These negative posters will very seldom, if ever post pictures of sets the way we all used to in those earlier years.  rcmacmallin is one of the originals that left for quite awhile and has come back.  But I just mention this to explain many things.

11. Anyway, Chess Bazaar was the only direct producer talked about here.  Their prices were a lot cheaper then than they are now.  
12. It was also about this time they came out with their 1849 set designed by Alan Dewey.  Some of the collectors on here bought that set and gave honest reviews with pictures.  There were some nice things about that reproduction, and some not nice things as well.

13. Carl with his Official Staunton Company started posting more.  And he was the first, not only mind you but the first, To have sets designed and made on the input of posters here. 
14. Carl also told of how he has been in this business for now well over 20 years.  He also has worked with manufacturers from India to get nice sets made.

15. Then, some of the manufacturers that HoS and Carl used decided they could sell direct and literally undercut Carl and HoS on the exact same design sets the manufacturers were making for them.  We see HoS and Carl both go away from those manufacturers and getting agreements with others, and not necessarily from India where you might expect.  Note that I am not saying right or wrong, but just stating the facts.

16. We also have seen more of the direct sale reproduction manufacturers come to the front selling sets.  They sell on eBay, Etsy, and/or their own sites.  They are definitely competing in the marketplace.  We now see a significant increase in offerings for Chess sets.

17. And these direct sale places are making their own reproduction design specifications.  In my opinion, we now see the pictures they put on their sites as the only way we can evaluate them.  We don’t have the goodknightmike, cgrau and a few other collectors buying all the sets to give us a real life review and comparison.

18. As I have said many times, I am a player that has a good number of sets.  I am not a collector.  If I were a collector I would be buying the same design sets from the different companies to collect and then be able to compare.

19. So, what we need are more people like Mohan and KnightsForkCafe to actually buy some of these sets they like and show pictures.

20. There are 2 set designs that I would like to see pictured here so we can compare.  What I want is to see a set on a board pictured by the person that owns it.  There is something about this that makes it so real.  sound67 has done an excellent job of showing his sets and boards.  In fact I bought a set from CB based on his review.

21. Back to the 2 set designs I would like shown are the RCM Craftsman set and the RCM FIDE World Championship reproduction.  And I mean shown on the owner’s board and table.

22. I own the HoS Craftsman set that RCM has copied.  Look at how they copied the Camaratta Knight.  I also bought and own the Official FIDE World Championship set that I bought from Chess Baron.

23. I have pictures on this forum of my HoS Craftsman set.  And still need to post pictures of my FIDE set.  I also own the CB FIDE World Championship reproduction that I need to picture for comparison. I do like the FIDE official one better so far.

24. I am not a big fan of exact Jaques reproduction sets.  I want my sets to look nice and more importantly play well.  So I too like the competition in the market.

 

 

 

magictwanger

You know,with the current situation in the world and so many folks losing their lives(I,myself just getting pneumonia and a pulmonary embolism.....doing great btw) I'd think/hope we'd all have a little more tolerance towards one another.....Just sayin'!-

IpswichMatt
Mohan_Kumar_Chess wrote:

@Eyechess
After searching for the statement, you understand that you can't find anything I said like "Carl doesnot know or understand the business"
and now blah blah blah blah.

Shame on you. Shame on you. You are such a pathetic liar who will bring up things which are never there and when caught red handed start blabbering. Shameful liar. 

Stop these tedious personal attacks now please.

Mohan_Kumar_Chess

@IpswichMatt
When he accuses me of something that I didn't mean where did you went. Cherry picking the statements against me? Did he proved his accusation on me? When asked about it he blabbered. 

IpswichMatt

Maybe, but the only personal attacks I see here are coming from you.

htdavid

I am failing to see what is the problem with an India company that have a store front / distribution center in Canada.

As of difference of lest say... The House of Staunton... that is a US Company but with a carpenters shop on India?

The difference is basically how they file out the paperwork.

Companies will build themselves around the strategy that works best for them... am I missing something here? what is the problem? One company is working around the taxes laws to pay the less possible taxes? I though all the companies on the world find ways to pay the less possible amount of taxes... as long as it is not illegal, what is the problem?

htdavid
rcmacmillan wrote:
htdavid wrote:

I am failing to see what is the problem with an India company that have a store front / distribution center in Canada.

As of difference of lest say... The House of Staunton... that is a US Company but with a carpenters shop on India?

The difference is basically how they file out the paperwork.

Companies will build themselves around the strategy that works best for them... am I missing something here? what is the problem? One company is working around the taxes laws to pay the less possible taxes? I though all the companies on the world find ways to pay the less possible amount of taxes... as long as it is not illegal, what is the problem?@

@htdavid, the point is that they don’t have a distribution center in Canada. They take the orders there, but ship out of their Indian facility, thus avoiding Canadian import taxes and, for all I know, Whatever Indian taxes they can avoid on sales.  Perhaps “good” business, if you are unethical, but hardly fair when you consider that American distributors pay the import taxes on their goods, collect the sales tax for the government when they sell the sets, and have all the cost of inventory and warehousing the product here. Why wouldn’t Mandeep Handicrafts set up their website in India, like CB, and sell from there? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks for the reply, after my post i decided to go back a couple of pages, on what is reasonable... to see if I catched what the problem is...

Needless to say I didn't got much of it...

I am happy to see that House of Stauton have a rep on the forums.

Mohan is ranting on so many topics I just can't... Keep in mind that for me this is fairly straight forward ideas.

American companies are not exploiting Indian companies... nobody is forcing the Indian companies to sell their products to Americans, if they don't think the money is right then they can just no sell. Though I have seeing videos of this shops on India and they seem to me very happy with the American clients... I don't think they are complaining.

Anyway the taxes deal looks to me pretty standard. I can understand why other companies are going to call it out... "unethical" you said?

So what should be the "ethical" thing to do? to move all the inventory from the factory on India to a warehouse in Canada, paying that way the imports into Canada, and if someone in another country buy the product then ship it from Canada paying again the Imports into the other country?

forked_again

Sounds like Staunton Castle has a better business model.  That's all.  There are lots of businesses figuring out how to make the modern economy work for them, and lots of others complaining about the unfairness of it all because they fail to compete.

Why wouldn't they set up their web site in India?  Lol it's a web site!

htdavid

Oh I just have an idea for ethical chess companies... Instead of goign to countries with cheap labor, they should open shops in US and hire locals... we are having some 30 million unemployed right now, I am sure that would not just be the ethical but also the patriotic thing to do... and also that way, will never need to complain about paying imports from any other country, because it will all be local....

how about that for ethical?

LOL.

htdavid
forked_again wrote:

Sounds like Staunton Castle has a better business model.  That's all.  There are lots of businesses figuring out how to make the modern economy work for them, and lots of others complaining about the unfairness of it all because they fail to compete.

Why wouldn't they set up their web site in India?  Lol it's a web site!

It is no just the website this is their info:

"You are welcome to the official website named ‘Staunton Castle’ of the Company CHESS CREATION INC.  established in Canada with its manufacturing origin ‘Mandeep Handicrafts’ of ‘Amritsar’, India;"

https://stauntoncastle.com/pages/about-us

Presented that way, this is a legal company in Canada, the Chess Creations Inc... they do run the website... who knows where? it does not matter much to be honest, lol... and for what I take on that quote, they have some strong relationship with another company in India, the manufacturing.

At that point the complaint of of the US companies is that a Canadian company is selling chess sets in US... but they are not shipping from Canada... so when an order is placed they will send the order to their contact in India and they will ship from there... If I understood correctly the problem.

I don't really know much about how this company have file their paperwork, or if they are or not paying the taxes the laws require them to pay... If i had a chess company I would not risk me a lawsuit just on a defamation campaign against some competing company... I don't know it sounds like that kind of legal problems that cost a lot to sort of.

After all, having a company in a place and shipping direct form the manufacturing is pretty common practice... that is the whole model business of Shopify... so going out making statements to hurt the reputation of a company on this regards will be an uphill battle in a courtroom... and hurt reputation have to worth something? that is a dive in their assets they toke right there... just saying... from my point of view, considering that I don't know much about the topic, it looks like this can backfire in epic ways.

 

Mohan_Kumar_Chess

@htdavid
You said :
"American companies are not exploiting Indian companies... nobody is forcing the Indian companies to sell their products to Americans, if they don't think the money is right then they can just no sell."

My exploiting comment is a reply for EZY1981 comment :
#4415
"Ah it was probably my fault, it seems one cannot mention dodgy Indian dealers on this platform because it opens up the veins of business ethics and morals, and well let's face it, no one here, or at best perhaps only a handful give a damn about it, so long as they get a good deal... so anyhow, house of Staunton,  the chesshouse, wholesale chess, and all those fine USA companies all are legitimate tax payers, their prices may be higher for obvious reasons "

Fine USA companies but dodgy Indian dealers ??? 

Eyechess

sound67 is right.  This is the way the business scene has developed.

We see Carl no longer having sets manufactured in India.  So the only set you can buy of one of his designs, from India is a reproduction.  These reproductions cannot not be identical to what Carl is selling.  Please note that I am not saying the reproductions have to be of lower quality, just differently manufactured.

House of Staunton has also found a different manufacturer, although I do not know where it is located as I do with Carl.  I would guess that the HoS source is in India, but that’s only a guess.  It appears that this source is making these designs only for HoS.  So once again we must deal with reproductions and not the original make.

Chess Bazaar has really improved their quality.  And yes, their prices have also increased.

Staunton Castle was the guy making sets for Carl, and most likely HoS.  Some of the designs he sells are the exact make of the models Carl sold and not reproductions.  Note that Carl no longer sells those models.

zagryan

@sound67 - What about plastic chess pieces sold by US stores? Aren't they made in China instead of India? Or is it like Drueke, genuinely made in US?

EZY1981

when a person applies for a visa and moves to a country and registers a business, presuming they have actually registered the business and not claiming state benefits for their families; they ought to at least pay their dues to that country.  The country takes them in, provides that family as citizens, for example, let's assume that they're in Canada for argument's sake, is it not a tax dodge to then ship the orders from India to buyers? You see almost all western retailers bulk order and import which levies a hefty tax duty and shipping, and this has a major effect on setting the retail sales price too. 

Also, the inward retail sales funds on the website are probably going direct back to India Bank- so some here may say they have achieved a better business model, or some may see it as a tax dodge? 

my initial point was that purchasing from a registered non-tax dodging company seems to me anyhow to be the legitimate and moral choice? but having said that I totally understand that unscrupulous zero moral individuals would sell their soul to get a dollar knocked off the tag, yeah those people really do exist! ...  happy.png 

EZY1981
magictwanger wrote:

You know,with the current situation in the world and so many folks losing their lives(I,myself just getting pneumonia and a pulmonary embolism.....doing great btw) I'd think/hope we'd all have a little more tolerance towards one another.....Just sayin'!-

get well dude, take care yourself 

Mohan_Kumar_Chess

@EZY1981
Why do you expect them to ship twice and store twice? Just because you don't have manufacturing unit in India like they do? What is the reason? 

EZY1981
Mohan_Kumar_Chess wrote:

@EZY1981
Why do you expect them to ship twice and store twice? Just because you don't have manufacturing unit in India like they do? What is the reason? 

Extremely presumptuous of you Mohan.....

 

As for the rest of this debate,  it's obviously falling on deaf ears ! 

 

Mohan_Kumar_Chess

@EZY1981
Sorry man, actually everyone here understands this is fair and right, except you.

forked_again

It seems people are trying to make something out of nothing.  If there are people living in Canada with an operation that takes orders and ships directly from the mfg location in India, then good for them.  A Canadian business must files taxes with the Canadian government, and any profits going to Canadian people are taxed by the Canadian government.  

They avoid shipping to Canada first, associated fees and taxes, warehousing and inventory costs etc. 

I would say thats the business model of the future, but actually, its the business model of the present and has been for quite some time.  Some people want to keep doing things the way they did in the 1950's, and complain about others who are smarter than that.