Review SC Commemorative Signature Series 3.75" Staunton Chessmen

So how did those artisans start with carving? They were born with that gift already?

How did you start your job? You were born with the knowledge how to do it or did you go to school to study what you want to do later? Another spoiler alert for you, it's called investing.

Not to add fuel to this fire but personally I would have purchased it from HoS. The plan was to buy it in 2020, but it sold out due to the Queen’s Gambit craze. I even emailed HoS to ask them back in April 2021 as to when they might expect to restock their 3.625” version. They said they were expecting a big shipment in May and June. Please check back. I was super excited. I checked every few days for many months, but there was no change. I gave up once they removed this set from their website. I’ve been waiting for a year at that point and was official SOL.

For whatever reason they decided this 3.625” version was not worth their time or money. I understand business is business. All businesses have to make money. That’s what pays the salaries of its employees, keeps the lights on, pays the rent, etc. Remember we all work for a business that shares in this philosophy. This includes everyone who is reading this. Anyhow, HoS has not sold this set since the end of 2020. I still want it. I don’t have an issue with buying from someone else if HoS decides they don’t want to sell it anymore. That’s the bottomline. HoS gets to decide when they don’t want to sell it anymore. I get to decide to buy it from someone else after that. It is like Jaques sets. If Jaques still produced the same 1849 set then I would gladly buy it from them over the one I bought from CB.

Because Frank was to busy teach them how the pieces move , Then after this he sold his Staunton Chessmen designs back to the English , With his new found codex of masters ?

Where would we be without HOS & there repros .

@mch818 you didn't fuel the fire in fact you killed it lol

In all seriousness, I had a chat on FB with Shawn the owner of HoS. I asked him why he discontinued the most gorgeous version of his Sinquefield line. He told me he didn't even know it was taken off of his website. He needed to talk with his webmaster to find out what's going on. I also told him it's been out of stock for quite some time and now even totally gone from his website. I asked if he still had plans to bring them back, in particular the one in mopane wood I still want that. He needed to talk to Frank and ask him if he has plans for that. 

That was that, still haven't heard any follow up on that. That mopane wood is gorgeous, oh well at least I have one, not mopane but I'm still thrilled to have it.

@TheOneCalledMichael Haha! I guess I did. At the time I was writing it, I thought someone would reply back with some comment. Normally I try to stay out of the way of the punches. 

This might fuel some comments. I understand there are many who agree with @JoePublic about buying knock offs. I don’t have any issue with your view on the subject. For those who agree with him, I am curious to know something. All chess sets made today are practically copies of someone else’s designs. Some do have consent from the design owners but many do not have rights to reproduce the sets. All of those club special plastic sets are a copy of a Lardy. The HoS Collectors in plastic has been copied many times over under different names. Everyone copied Jaques designs in one way or another. Even Frank’s designs are a copy of Jaques. Dubrovnik sets currently produced by everyone are all copies. Even Drueke sets reproduced by HoS are copies of Drueke’s original designs. If you feel so strongly against buying knock offs, what do you guys buy to play chess at tournaments, clubs, study at home, play at a coffee shop with a cousin, etc? Do you buy vintage and antique sets to play chess? If so do you bring them to tournaments. In a tournament,do you reject equipment if it is a knock off... say an unauthorized copy of a Lardy set, a knock of the current WC set, Mandeep’s Sinquefield set shown in this thread, etc? What do you guys do?

Here we go again with the knockoffs...bottom line is that ship sailed over 50 years ago with the French. MANY French companies stole Lardys design as well as several others I'm sure. I'm sure we'd all love for people to respect anothers copyrights but that's life. In most cases originals are either unobtainable or cost prohibitive nowadays. I'm sure in a lot of circumstances their copyrights have expired. With today's craftsmen, the knockoffs are far superior to the originals of some companies. It would be a rare thing today to find a bishop or a queen leaning like a Lardy or using pitted up wood with knots etc. In cases like Biro's where the craftsman is still alive and producing an amazing product then by all means....buy the original. But that's the exception and not the rule.

Without going into the ethical, moral, and legality of manufacturing and/or purchasing this particular set from Mandeep Saggu (Staunton Castle) the fact is that it is an unauthorized reproduction of a copyrighted Knight design. The Camaratta-Craftsman Knight design. I have communicated with Frank Camaratta regarding this and he has confirmed this in no uncertain terms. The Imperial Knight design is also an original Camaratta copyrighted Knight design. The huge vast majority of chess sets and Knight designs out there are NOT copyrighted. Many people don't know this. Now you do. And you can make your own personal decision. 

I have said this before, Mandeep Saggu (Staunton Castle) is a talented skilled sculptor who can carve beautifully. I unfortunately have serious issue with his business practices that I can not ignore. But hey, there's no need to justify anything. I'm not the forum police. 

Frank Camaratta is not hard to find via email if you want to discuss this with him as I have. 

I love HOS. I order from them as much as I can. But they're hardly without fault either. They shamelessly sell Biro's set themselves...and the lowest price on a craftsman knight set that I saw was 495. They shouldn't be surprised by the behavior of the Indian companies. (and I'm sure they're not)

495 is the ebonized boxwood version. Try to see the starting price for ebony

You / can see why people shop elsewhere  in the EU  with that USA import tax + shipping cost + VAT 21% / Making the price very silly , Then on top to know that the set is made in India  so it a KO because it has NO HOS stamp ? In The  OCM  case he has a Mandeep stamp ,

Just to add if the Knight designs are copyrighted by Frank why has he not sued them for copyright infringement ?

Absolutely not my cup of tea. The ball on top of the pawns seems too small for the body, the shaft of the king and queen seem too fat and the knights are just ugly, in my opinion. If you compare this set (or absolutely any HoS or similar) to a 19th century Jaques set from almost any period, it just doesn't even come close. 

That said, all opinions are personal and clearly there is no right or wrong when it comes to taste. To that end, very happy for the owner of this set that it brings so much joy. Congratulations. 

Sometimes fair trade isn't fair,but that's the business world.I owned a small business for 35.5 years and saw it all!

I don't care either way,except for some guy's need to antagonize well respected forum members for their personal decisions and go with the potty mouth crapola we thought we were done with..

just on the copyright thing, I bought a good-quality chess set at auction a few months ago without knowing what it was. I even posted pictures on the forum here to try to find out where this set was from. Well, that led me to Camaratta himself, who informed me that it "was an Indian rip-off" of one of his HoS designs. 

Had I known, I never would have bought the set. I don't agree with copyright infringement, and I think we should all respect the time and effort that the creator put into the original design/conception. 

At the same time, however, there is nothing that I can see inferior in any way with the set I got compared with the real thing. In fact, it's every bit as good as far as I can make out - and perhaps even better in some small ways. 

I think if HoS etc. get their sets made in India in order to take advantage of cheap labour etc., they're asking for trouble. Buyers know that they can buy a set that comes from exactly the same factory, and probably made by the same workers, for a fraction of the price.

Bottom line, if they can't distinguish their sets in terms of quality from the "knock-offs", and yet insist on charging multiple times more for essentially the same thing, then that shows a lack of respect towards the end customer. They need to differentiate their sets from the others more than they're doing in order to justify the considerably higher prices they are charging. 

#75

Let's compare apples to apples. Yes, the full retail price on the lowest HoS set with the Camaratta-Craftsman Knight with solid wood, locking presentation box is $495. For the sake of conversation, let's say the full retail price of the included presentation box is $100. That brings the price down to $395 for the pieces. If patient, 20% off coupons are available several times a year. 15-10% off is more common. That brings the price of the HoS pieces down to $316.

Based solely on price, no one can beat the manufacturer. For some people, monetary price is not the sole deciding factor. 

Huge international multibillion dollar companies with entire departments of lawyers struggle to keep up with global copyright infringement. I doubt any individual in their right mind would spend their life savings and mortgage their home to fight a legal battle in a foreign country. I'm guessing that's what these manufacturers are banking on unfortunately.

Again, I want to make it extremely clear that I seriously don't care what anyone purchases for themselves. No need for reasoning or justification. It's your collection. Buy what you want. Enjoy the heck out of it. Oh, and take tons of photos and post on the forum. Hah!

Is it only cheap labour? Isn't there a long tradition of wood working, resulting in a pool of skilled craftsmen in Amritsar, that simply isn't there in US / EU?

But I don't really agree with that. The original creator (in this case Camaratta) made investments in the chess set: making the design, finding carvers to make test pieces, have test pieces made [probably paying for the carver's time], giving feedback / fine-tuning the design, setting up detailed specifications and quality control instructions, etc.

Of course, once everything is in place, it is much easier (i.e. cheaper) to make additional chess sets... A higher price is reasonable to recover the initial investments (both the investments themselves as well as the associated risks). The question is, of course, how much higher is reasonable? (I don't know, obviously, as I am mostly speculating.)

Much have been said about basically everything. When things like politics, economics, religions etc get involved then things get ugly. I don't think anybody, me included, is free of blame. I could go on philosophical about it which I love to do btw but I'd say just leave it at that, there are worse things in the world to worry about.

Just like mr Pawnerai said, let's just enjoy our passion and take lot and lot pictures to share them