Valuing the creative process.

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Avatar of Powderdigit

This is an odd topic for me to start because I am neither an artisan, (albeit I have tried and enjoyed turning a few wooden chess pieces) nor do I curate a valuable collection of chess sets. Yet, this is a topic about artisans and value. 

I note that Jaques chess pieces may sell for many thousands of dollars, even damaged and flawed. As with any antique - prices seem to be based on rarity, quality, provenance and market demand - among other factors. Sadly (for me 🙂) such original sets are now out of my range but I admire the collections of others. 

It is the value of new ‘classics’ that intrigues me. As an hypothetical example: a high-quality chess set of a new design may take 40-60 hrs to turn, carve, sand and finish. This time probably doesn’t include a full account of the creative design process. Next assumption - once the newly designed set is finished - perhaps the carving and finishing time comes down to 30-40 hrs - per set.  
So the time alone is a substantial investment. Add to that artistic merit, limited availability(how many sets can one artisan make?), craftsmanship, detail, wood choice, finishing….. the list goes on.

So how is the artisan rewarded? Surely such new sets - those that are aesthetically beautiful and of the highest had-crafted quality sets are as valuable as some rare antiques when times and materials are concerned? 

Finally - I suppose it is difficult pose the question without acknowledging that one way of keeping costs down to to design a set and then move manufacture to a lower costs location; and/or design and manufacture in a lower cost location. 

I find it an intriguing question - one that I cannot easily answer … how does the artisans get commensurate reward for their time and effort. I suppose, like any artist - it is about their body of work over time; their portfolio and whether people see their  portfolio emerging as a work that will stand the test of time, be viewed as of rare quality that such an investment now will only grow over time … but I it’s a very narrow market - finding those collectors - perhaps even benefactors - who have the passion and funds to reward the artisans. 

Again, it’s an odd question from me - one who does not participate in the market for the rare, beautiful and high-value but I am still intrigued … and because the question floats around my skull - I thought I’d pose it more broadly too. 😊

Avatar of greghunt

I thnk its more about the nature of market than about the creative artisan's effort.

Design and Price: Sets made by people like Oleg Raikis are many thousands to tens of thousands of dollars, but his sets are not all that novel and produced in very small quantities. Across the market there are few really new designs and those that are successful are protected by the design monopolies delivered by copyright - the work of Ohme, Ernst, Cox (Alcoa), Man Ray for example, and they are either proportionally expensive (Man Ray, but still only a few hundred dollars) or to some degree scarce (the Enrst estate for example holding the supply of reproductions down without pushing the price up because they are concerned about the handful of originals in circulation). I think that the fetishisation of theJaques sets here, followed later by fetishisation of the mid 20th century Russian sets when the Jaques sets got too expensive is a cultural issue in this place, not entirely (a bit, not completely) reflected in the real, commercial, world, the price range is larger than talked about here and serious collectors collect other types as well, but not as far as I am aware, new sets. This is more the starving artist in a garret model (or at best Natalia Danko) than one that provides a nicely funded life.

Effort and the effect of commercial pressure: At 40 to 60 hours of labour, a chess set made in a G20 country in the way you seem to be thinking of is going to have a manufacturing cost of thousands of dollars. Jaques Staunton sets were always mass produced, I strongly suspect in much the same way that the reproductions are produced today with form turning tools, batch work and simple finishes, the expensively hand carved knights being the part of the process that is difficult to optimise, all those techniques hold the effort hours down and focus on the high value-add bits. At scale, distribution costs and resilience matter - as time passes and cost pressures rose the Jaques set designs changed, they acquired bases which were proportionally thicker (moving away from that early wide flange that was likely to crack resulting in returns, probably allowing use of less well seasoned wood, the more cylindrical shape reducing the amount of wood that had to be turned away, moving to more simply carved knights also reduces the production cost. Those pressures come with commercial success and trying to make a profit.

Market scale and expectation: Its not clear to me that the chess set market is big enough or wealthy enough to support more than a handful of the kind of one-at-a-time chess set maker artisans that you describe, I am not sure how far above one that number is. The market for new designs is even smaller (I mean actually new designs, we really don't need more utterly unimaginative Ferderals/Confederates, Nazis/Allies Franklin Mint type sets). Will people pay a lot for artisan made sets with new designs? I think not, I recently saw a price of a couple of hundred US dollars for a quite nice modern design I hadn't seen before, but that doesn't allow a lot of effort to be sunk into a set and the cost to start making a set at scale is likely to be significant - low initial price, low ability to tool up to increase profit, profit constrained by low initial price. Consider what the Graeme Anthony sets sell for, hand-cast bronze for how much? Effectively nothing considering the effort involved. This is in part a problem of how wealthy the market is, and of expectation. I had an email last night offering me a Go board for roughly USD55,000, reduced from 70 (not personally offered, its a mailing list) I've never seen a shogi board for that price but the two objects are very very similar in construction and in what drives production cost, the difference is in the expectation of the market. Until a significant number of chess buyers will spend more than a couple of hundred on a chess set design that is already tuned for mass production there will be no significant number of artisan chess piece makers. This tuning the design for manufacture is in part why we have little to no activity around repro DIeppe sets, early Dutch sets, or repro figural sets, the high volume part of THAT market is probably Harry Potter, the Simpsons and Star Wars where the value is in the movie/TV tie-in rather than the craftsmanship or the presence of super-high quality plastic.

Cheap CNC technology might help with the manufacturing problem, I suspect it is the long term answer for the problem of ugly primitive Staunton knights, but introducing that would clash with manufacturing being done incredibly cheaply by barefoot wood turners sitting in the gloom on the floor of wood shaving strewn factories, and that would damage the somewhat romantic view of chess piece manufacture that some people seem to have. It would also place a floor under the cost of that component (the machinery has costs to run, maintain and periodically replace). In the end however, the work would still be being done with wood, an unreliable and expensive material.

I am not optimistic. I doubt that the kind of chess artisan you are thinking of can be supported by the market except as a kind of side-activity or hobby.

Avatar of magictwanger

I wouldn't mind acquiring the Anglo Persian Artisan Series pieces that Staunton Castle now carries.

It would be pretty sad if the artisan responsible for that "God Tier" design wasn't appropriately compensated.

Btw, fellas....Puhleeease...Paragraph breaks! My getting somewhat old eyes have a hard time lately. happy

Avatar of Powderdigit

Cheers Magic and Greg.

@greghunt - your thinking is aligned to mine, and your ability to articulate the issue is miles ahead of me. Thanks for your thoughts and clear summary.

Avatar of ungewichtet

Looking at top tournaments, it amazes me that the greatest players in the world always play with more or less ordinary Staunton pieces. In open tournaments, is it a certain set matching the electronic boards? I ought to look more closely and widely, but the impression may be correct that it is at most a small variety of sets employed. Many invitational tournaments make a statement by using recognizable and more refined sets but- they are all Staunton! Meaning to say they all revolve around that stable ideal.

A logic of functionality triumphs: Chess pieces need to be well discernible, durable, unpretentious and accessible for everybody. Once an ideal form is found the issue is solved and we can focus on and celebrate the game. But, I would argue, there is something indiscernible, un-durable, pretentious and inaccessible for everybody in setting an ideal.

Why would it be best to understand and spread the game to have a certain ideal form of chess piece design? The rules being universal should be enough for that. A culture of using different sets of chessmen may be much more natural and inspiring than a culture of using more or less the same.

A switch of perspectives like that would lay out new grounds, where markets for all sorts of artisan chess pieces could flower

Avatar of greghunt

I don't think that there is a stable ideal. There is a design that is sufficiently familiar that it minimises the chances of pieces being misinterpreted under pressure, that minimises mental load, that is sufficiently like oither sets in use to avoid surprise. Those attributes are determined by a combination of design (Stunton pattern is good for that) and history and they apply at a particular moment in time. Attempts to dictate ideals tend to collide with reality, what is ideal at a moment in time is something that emerges from current and past practice.

It feels like what you are advocating is in fact a return to the pre-Staunton pattern state, when there were a range of styles: Cafe de la Regence, Austrlan coffee house, barleycorn and others in different places. How do you suggest that such a shift, such a return, would happen? I think we have ended up where we are through explicable and not very surprising processes, functional, cultural and commercial, that lead to homogenisation of the market. Do they represent a market for artisans or just a different mass manufacturing range?

Avatar of hermanjohnell

There is, I think, enough wiggle room within what can be deemed Staunton pieces and I really don´t see the point in making chess pieces that deviates from that norm, unless we´re talking novelties. Myself i see chess sets and pieces as just that, kit needed to play chess. As for putting a monetary value on artisanship (or craftsmanship) that has to be up to ones wallet.

In Sweden wages are quite high and thus chess ses made in Sweden should cost more than corresponding sets mad in, say, India where wages are lower. Still I recently bought a perfectly nice, handmade in Sweden, chess set for 1.900 SEK. However I´m unable to find a comparable set att Chess Bazaar for so, relatively, little money.

I value artisanship but I don´t like beeing taken for a fool and too easily parted from my money...

Avatar of QWE098123ASD

In China, many artisans make short videos showcasing their carpentry skills and finished products,and put some commercial links in videos. Their main source of income is through people buying things like electronics or snacks in commercial links,Instead of wooden artwork.I think that is a Successful model to protect the artisans.

Avatar of goodspellr

I was curious what organizations actually require of the piece design used in their tournaments and found this in the FIDE Handbook's Standards of Chess Equipment

  • 1. Chess Equipment
    • 1.1 The chess equipment offered by the organisers (hosts) of a FIDE or Continental Championship, Olympiad and other FIDE registered tournaments shall conform with the standards mentioned below, and shall be approved by the Chief Organiser and the Chief Arbiter.
      • 1.1.1. It is recommended, that the chess pieces, boards and clocks, used in the World or Continental top level competitions be approved by participating players. Their approval shall be obtained for other equipment the table, chairs etc. In case either side disagrees, the equipment to be used shall be decided by the Chief Organiser or the Chief Arbiter of the event, bearing in mind the standards for its size and form as mentioned below.
      • 1.1.2. It is highly recommended that the chess equipment used in a competition is the same for all participants and all games.
  • 2. Chess Pieces
    • 2.1. Material: Chess pieces should be made of wood, plastic or an imitation of these materials.
    • 2.2. Height, weight, proportions: The size of the pieces should be proportionate to their height and form; other elements such as stability, aesthetic considerations etc., may also be taken into account. The weight of the pieces should be suitable for comfortable moving and stability. Recommended height of the pieces is as follows: King – 9.5 cm, Queen – 8.5 cm, Bishop – 7 cm, Knight – 6 cm, Rook – 5.5 cm and Pawn – 5 cm. The diameter of the piece's base should measure 40-50% of its height. These dimensions may differ up to 10% from the above recommendation, but the order (e.g. King is higher than Queen etc.) must be kept.
    • 2.3 Form, style of pieces: Recommended for use in FIDE competitions are pieces of Staunton style. The pieces should be shaped so as to be clearly distinguishable from one another. In particular the top of the King should distinctly differ from that of the Queen. The top of the Bishop may bear a notch or be of a special colour clearly distinguishing it from that of the Pawn.
    • 2.4. Colour of the pieces: The “black” pieces should be brown or black, or of other dark shades of these colours. The “white” pieces may be white or cream, or of other light colours. The natural colour of wood (walnut, maple, etc.) may also be used for this purpose. The pieces should not be shiny and should be pleasing to the eye."

Even though they explicitly mention the Staunton style, it is merely "recommended". Any number of other artistic designs could meet the size/shape/color requirements. The biggest barriers seem to be having enough identical sets for all players in the tournament and overcoming player objections (although Organisers and Arbiters have the power to overrule those).

I'm actually surprised that chess.com doesn't market their own branded style of chess set and use it in chess.com-promoted events. They sell all other kinds of chess-related merchandise (most of which I can't imagine someone buying). In the spirit of a true tech company, I bet they could even get their paying users to design the sets for them and then reap the profits.

Avatar of Thordelvalle

How Long Is The Process.

Avatar of felonet

I have also found it interesting that the top players seem to care very little about the physical pieces they are playing with. In many sports, equipment choice can make a difference in performance - however this is not a great analogy for the sport of chess.

My conclusion is that top GMs are into this game for something completely different than perhaps we are - you would need a special kind of motivation to dedicate the time necessary to reach those levels. It must be some aspect of the sport that I do not understand given my rating.

Avatar of hermanjohnell

Chess sets are more for the spectators. Those who really can play chess don´t need them.

Avatar of ungewichtet
greghunt wrote:

I don't think that there is a stable ideal. There is a design that is sufficiently familiar that it minimises the chances of pieces being misinterpreted under pressure, that minimises mental load, that is sufficiently like oither sets in use to avoid surprise. Those attributes are determined by a combination of design (Stunton pattern is good for that) and history and they apply at a particular moment in time. Attempts to dictate ideals tend to collide with reality, what is ideal at a moment in time is something that emerges from current and past practice.

It feels like what you are advocating is in fact a return to the pre-Staunton pattern state, when there were a range of styles: Cafe de la Regence, Austrlan coffee house, barleycorn and others in different places. How do you suggest that such a shift, such a return, would happen? I think we have ended up where we are through explicable and not very surprising processes, functional, cultural and commercial, that lead to homogenisation of the market. Do they represent a market for artisans or just a different mass manufacturing range?

I see the merits of the Staunton pattern, and the surplus it brings to have only one such design in play world wide (including 'wiggle room' within the design, as Herman puts it).

Independent of manufacturer's and player's interests, there is an idealization. I don't say an ideal is imposed or demanded or that it has just grown- just that it's there. And that, in its great success, in showing everywhere, it obstructs our view. If, for example, it can at times appear tiring or boring, then it does not minimise mental load. Using different sorts of sets instead of one sort may be difficult but also rewarding, a refreshing exercise of distributing our attention onto the differences within a set of pieces anew.

If we play chess, it is not about optimization, that's to the machines. While we are not trying to be best, trying out things is best. In analogy, the optimal chess piece pattern were not optimal, but many sets were optimal. We can return to old designs or make new designs. The shift in perspective of what we want of our chess sets would create a long-term modest demand- not among collectors but among players- and would mean work and praise for artisans.

Avatar of Powderdigit

Hey everyone, something weird happening with this thread - I can no longer see it in my feed and I’m the OP?! Very strange / does anyone any thoughts as to what may be happening? I thought it a worthwhile conversation?

Avatar of ungewichtet

I can see it.. I had some bugs trying to open daily games today, but they are back now. I hope your thread is visible again, for you, too.

Avatar of lighthouse

In today market , it's down to choice , Maybe to much it seems ? Set's say back in the 70s ,

Where very cheaply made wooden french set or plastic sets made in Hong Kong . When I was a kid / Bobby Fischer chess craze .

I think design wise the set's around $400 , Are very well made / Sure then we have NOJ + Oleg +

Antique chess sets + E boards .

But even back then theses Antique chess sets where for the rich or for the rise of the middle class / with new found wealth .

So it all back to choice & how you want to part with them $$$$$$$$ bills .

Cash, Rules, Everything, Around, Me 
C.R.E.A.M. 
Get the money 
Dollar, dollar bill y'all

Avatar of chesslover0003

You might need to clarify who the artisan is you are referring to. Is it the designer of the set, or the one that carves or manufactures it?

I am often interested in the design and designer. In the case of Jaques, I think many people may want an original set to be able to touch history and what influenced a lot of modern chess design... at least the standardization. We don't know who the carvers were. And today, the designer nor the carver/manufacturer earn anything in a secondary sale offsets.

Soviet era sets we don't know who the designer was but in some cases they were stamped with a manufacturer label (again we don't know the carver).

Dubrovnik sets we know a bit more about both... with some uncertainty and controversy.

I'm lucky to own many Noj sets, and one from IM Biro. I have a 3D printed BCE set. I cherish them all. I'm also very interested in the fun you can have with colorful silicon sets and mousepad boards. I want to recreate some classic designs as 3D prints for use with smaller boards and with different materials and colours. I think all the pieces except knights are relatively easy to design.

Avatar of Powderdigit
chesslover0003 wrote:

You might need to clarify who the artisan is you are referring to. Is it the designer of the set, or the one that carves or manufactures it?

I am often interested in the design and designer. In the case of Jaques, I think many people may want an original set to be able to touch history and what influenced a lot of modern chess design... at least the standardization. We don't know who the carvers were. And today, the designer nor the carver/manufacturer earn anything in a secondary sale offsets.

Soviet era sets we don't know who the designer was but in some cases they were stamped with a manufacturer label (again we don't know the carver).

Dubrovnik sets we know a bit more about both... with some uncertainty and controversy.

I'm lucky to own many Noj sets, and one from IM Biro. I have a 3D printed BCE set. I cherish them all. I'm also very interested in the fun you can have with colorful silicon sets and mousepad boards. I want to recreate some classic designs as 3D prints for use with smaller boards and with different materials and colours. I think all the pieces except knights are relatively easy to design.

Thanks for your thoughts @chesslover0003 - my initial thinking is where the designer and carver are the same, and known. That is what I find attractive about my IM Biro Sandor pieces, for example. 
Other current artisans that come to mind are Oleg Raikis and Porat Jacobson. I am sure there are numerous others. 
To me, while I cannot afford their work, they deliver beautiful pieces - and the owner knows who designed them (if an original design) and who carved them…. The provenance of any notable ownership and/or when they were used in any notable games may also come into play in future years too.

It seems to me there are not many modern sets where the designer and carver are one in the same and if rarity contributes to value over time, surely these sets will be rare in future years.

Avatar of baudouin27

One designer carver worth keeping in mind is Tim Offenstein on ETSY (Falling Leaf Chess).