Trouble visualizing

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pukefoot
Farm_Hand wrote:

And at an informal club I currently visit (meaning we don't have tournaments or play rated games, we just play casual games), this old coach guy, what he does with beginner level players is he doesn't let them play during the first 20-30 minutes. He pulls them aside, pulls out some GM game, and makes them read the notation and play out the moves on the board. He makes a few basic comments like about development or tactics. Then he lets them go play with the rest of us (he owns the building so he's not shy about being in charge with anyone who walks in heh, he's seriously told people that if they don't like it they can go play in the parking lot lol)

 

That is awesome that you've been so dedicated. I wish I would have taken it more seriously when I first showed interest. I think I've wasted too much time trying to organize a study plan (still haven't even done it yet) and researching "how to improve" rather then just playing. I really should just play more.

pukefoot
IMBacon wrote:
meowbrah wrote:

Well at least I feel better about not being able to solve these quickly. I'm just doing one puzzle after another in the 5334 polgar book. Didn't think these 2 move mates would be so difficult right after solving a bunch of pretty simple 1 move mates.

 

Should I put the book on hold and work on something easier? Cause this book has about 3,000 more 2 move mate puzzles then goes to 3 move mates. If so, does anyone have any recommendations?

 

I do believe you would be better off starting with something much simpler. 

1001 Chess Exercises for Beginners (Franco Masetti and Roberto Messa)

 

Would you recommend this?

https://www.chessable.com/1001-chess-exercises-for-beginners/course/8038/

Farm_Hand
meowbrah wrote:
Farm_Hand wrote:

And at an informal club I currently visit (meaning we don't have tournaments or play rated games, we just play casual games), this old coach guy, what he does with beginner level players is he doesn't let them play during the first 20-30 minutes. He pulls them aside, pulls out some GM game, and makes them read the notation and play out the moves on the board. He makes a few basic comments like about development or tactics. Then he lets them go play with the rest of us (he owns the building so he's not shy about being in charge with anyone who walks in heh, he's seriously told people that if they don't like it they can go play in the parking lot lol)

 

That is awesome that you've been so dedicated. I wish I would have taken it more seriously when I first showed interest. I think I've wasted too much time trying to organize a study plan (still haven't even done it yet) and researching "how to improve" rather then just playing. I really should just play more.

I'm having the same problem with a completely unrelated skill I've taken an interest in.

For about a year I've just been reading stuff, and watching videos online, and trying to think of a study plan and all that... which has definitely not been useless, but of course at some point it's better to just start doing things instead of making plans tongue.png

IMKeto
meowbrah wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
meowbrah wrote:

Well at least I feel better about not being able to solve these quickly. I'm just doing one puzzle after another in the 5334 polgar book. Didn't think these 2 move mates would be so difficult right after solving a bunch of pretty simple 1 move mates.

 

Should I put the book on hold and work on something easier? Cause this book has about 3,000 more 2 move mate puzzles then goes to 3 move mates. If so, does anyone have any recommendations?

 

I do believe you would be better off starting with something much simpler. 

1001 Chess Exercises for Beginners (Franco Masetti and Roberto Messa)

 

Would you recommend this?

https://www.chessable.com/1001-chess-exercises-for-beginners/course/8038/

A great site!  And yes that would be a great start for you.  You have to learn to crawl before you can walk :-)  Something else that i don't think has been brought up is very important.  Use a real board and pieces!!!  You want to simulate OTB tournament conditions as much as possible. 

When working on a tactic start with trying to understand what type of tactic it is: Pin, fork, skewer, mate in 1...2...etc. 

Set up each problem on a real board with real pieces.  I know im repeating myself, but this is really important to your learning.

When determining what piece the tactic involves? Start with the King, and work your way down to each piece.  Generally tactics will involve the King when your just starting out learning.

Start with Forcing Moves: Checks, Captures, Threats (in that order)  Calculate out each line as far as you can. 

Write down your thoughts on each tactic.  What were you thinking?  What was your initial thought to each tactic? 

DO NOT go to the next puzzle until you THOROUGHLY understand each tactic you solve.

pukefoot
IMBacon wrote:
meowbrah wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
meowbrah wrote:

Well at least I feel better about not being able to solve these quickly. I'm just doing one puzzle after another in the 5334 polgar book. Didn't think these 2 move mates would be so difficult right after solving a bunch of pretty simple 1 move mates.

 

Should I put the book on hold and work on something easier? Cause this book has about 3,000 more 2 move mate puzzles then goes to 3 move mates. If so, does anyone have any recommendations?

 

I do believe you would be better off starting with something much simpler. 

1001 Chess Exercises for Beginners (Franco Masetti and Roberto Messa)

 

Would you recommend this?

https://www.chessable.com/1001-chess-exercises-for-beginners/course/8038/

A great site!  And yes that would be a great start for you.  You have to learn to crawl before you can walk :-)  Something else that i don't think has been brought up is very important.  Use a real board and pieces!!!  You want to simulate OTB tournament conditions as much as possible. 

When working on a tactic start with trying to understand what type of tactic it is: Pin, fork, skewer, mate in 1...2...etc. 

Set up each problem on a real board with real pieces.  I know im repeating myself, but this is really important to your learning.

When determining what piece the tactic involves? Start with the King, and work your way down to each piece.  Generally tactics will involve the King when your just starting out learning.

Start with Forcing Moves: Checks, Captures, Threats (in that order)  Calculate out each line as far as you can. 

Write down your thoughts on each tactic.  What were you thinking?  What was your initial thought to each tactic? 

DO NOT go to the next puzzle until you THOROUGHLY understand each tactic you solve.

 

Thanks so much!

IpswichMatt

Those problems like the one in post #8 - tricky and completely unrealistic mate-in-2's and similar problems - what are we supposed to get from them?

I've always just dismissed them in the past as not worth bothering with, but now I'm thinking that they must be good for training something - does anyone know what it is? Is it to improve calculation speed and thoroughness or something?

Farm_Hand
IpswichMatt wrote:

Those problems like the one in post #8 - tricky and completely unrealistic mate-in-2's and similar problems - what are we supposed to get from them?

I've always just dismissed them in the past as not worth bothering with, but now I'm thinking that they must be good for training something - does anyone know what it is? Is it to improve calculation speed and thoroughness or something?

Well, some positions are like that. You're winning, but there are no forcing moves that work (like checks or captures) and you have to instead think in terms of where your opponent can move, and how to make his options undesirable.

If nothing else it's a puzzle that exercises visualization.

 

But in particular that puzzle has a theme of, what I call, "intersections." I use this all the time when going for a mating attack, and that's giving value to moves that cause two pieces to attack the same square near the king. I call it an intersection because if you imagine something like rooks on a4 and e1, their line of attack intersects, like roads, on e4.

 

So for the puzzle in #8 not only was I thinking in terms of redundancy (both the queen and knight influence c6) but the knight move that jumped out at me was Nd5 to attack b6 because that creates an intersection with the queen.

Farm_Hand

But I agree doing puzzles that are themed by more common patterns (like back rank mate) is much more useful in the beginning.

IpswichMatt

Thanks for the response. The first of the 9 Yusupov books has a chapter of these - Yusupov must know what he's doing so there must be some benefit to them.

Looking at a couple in the Yusupov book I see that that there are typically a number of mating patterns to each problem, and they are largely "bare-bones" mating patterns too, so this may further add to their instructional value.

I think I've been biased against them in the past because they make me feel stupid - having so much trouble with a mate in 2. So they teach humility too angry.png

IMKeto
IpswichMatt wrote:

Thanks for the response. The first of the 9 Yusupov books has a chapter of these - Yusupov must know what he's doing so there must be some benefit to them.

Looking at a couple in the Yusupov book I see that that there are typically a number of mating patterns to each problem, and they are largely "bare-bones" mating patterns too, so this may further add to their instructional value.

I think I've been biased against them in the past because they make me feel stupid - having so much trouble with a mate in 2. So they teach humility too 

 

If a book doesnt make you think, how much good is it doing you?

StinkingHyena

 

Honestly I really do appreciate them when they are pretty, this one if black puts up the stiffest defense, while not hard is very nice. (way too many double entendres)  White to play and draw.

P.S. I dont see the board well either, so you have a lot of company.

IpswichMatt
IMBacon wrote: 

If a book doesnt make you think, how much good is it doing you?

Not much. However, being made think will not necessarily improve your chess. At the risk of stating the obvious, having to think is a necessary criteria but it is not sufficient.

brother7
IpswichMatt wrote:

Thanks for the response. The first of the 9 Yusupov books has a chapter of these - Yusupov must know what he's doing so there must be some benefit to them.

Yusupov's set of Fundamentals, Beyond the Basics and Mastery books are excellent but probably not appropriate for the OP who's ratings are all below 1000.

I think OP's subject line "Trouble visualizing" doesn't address the more fundamental problem. The fundamental problem isn't visualization, it's recognizing the mating patterns in the first place. Polgar's 5334 book is chock full of mating patterns BUT with no textual explanation whatsoever.

Instead of a book of exercises with no explanation (Polgar's 5334), I think OP needs a book with more text explanation describing the features of the mating pattern in words. In another thread, OP asked for opinions on Learn Chess the Right Way by Susan Polgar, which is actually a series of books. I looked at the sample of Book 1: Must-know Checkmates and think this is EXACTLY what OP needs!

Learn Chess the Right Way is a five-book series. I suggest OP start with Book 1 and slowly work his way through all five books. If OP does this diligently, I believe OP can reach 1300-1500 strength with these books alone.

Book 1: Must-know Checkmates
Book 2: Winning Material
Book 3: Mastering Defensive Techniques
Book 4: Sacrifice to Win!
Book 5: Finding Winning Moves!

Note, the primary focus of Polgar's five-book series is tactics. Strategy shouldn't be neglected. For strategy, Winning Chess Strategy for Kids by Coakley is appropriate for OP's level of play and can be studied concurrently with the Polgar series of books.

pukefoot
brother7 wrote:
IpswichMatt wrote:

Thanks for the response. The first of the 9 Yusupov books has a chapter of these - Yusupov must know what he's doing so there must be some benefit to them.

Yusupov's set of Fundamentals, Beyond the Basics and Mastery books are excellent but probably not appropriate for the OP who's ratings are all below 1000.

I think OP's subject line "Trouble visualizing" doesn't address the more fundamental problem. The fundamental problem isn't visualization, it's recognizing the mating patterns in the first place. Polgar's 5334 book is chock full of mating patterns BUT with no textual explanation whatsoever.

Instead of a book of exercises with no explanation (Polgar's 5334), I think OP needs a book with more text explanation describing the features of the mating pattern in words. In another thread, OP asked for opinions on Learn Chess the Right Way by Susan Polgar, which is actually a series of books. I looked at the sample of Book 1: Must-know Checkmates and think this is EXACTLY what OP needs!

Learn Chess the Right Way is a five-book series. I suggest OP start with Book 1 and slowly work his way through all five books. If OP does this diligently, I believe OP can reach 1300-1500 strength with these books alone.

Book 1: Must-know Checkmates
Book 2: Winning Material
Book 3: Mastering Defensive Techniques
Book 4: Sacrifice to Win!
Book 5: Finding Winning Moves!

Note, the primary focus of Polgar's five-book series is tactics. Strategy shouldn't be neglected. For strategy, Winning Chess Strategy for Kids by Coakley is appropriate for OP's level of play and can be studied concurrently with the Polgar series of books.

 

I actually just finished the second book of that series today (working through them on scribd). But I have been considering getting them on chessable as well (although that's going to be very expensive). My problem is retaining information learned. It doesn't come naturally.. I have to repeat things at least 5 times to get them to stick.

pukefoot

Chessable seems like a really great tool to use for repeating these drills over and over again. I do have a lot of time at my disposal and would REALLY love to utilize it the correct way and most effectively. I'm just really not trying to spend any more money than i have to lol. Does anyone use chessable?

IMKeto
meowbrah wrote:

Chessable seems like a really great tool to use for repeating these drills over and over again. I do have a lot of time at my disposal and would REALLY love to utilize it the correct way and most effectively. I'm just really not trying to spend any more money than i have to lol. Does anyone use chessable?

I do and love it!

brother7

Throughout Book 1: Must-know Checkmates, each exercise has 4 blanks to write your Time to Solve. Since your problem is with retention, perhaps going through the book multiple times, each time noting your Time to Solve, is one way to reinforce the pattern.

Also, I think you may be entering a vicious cycle that myself and many other improving players fall in to. The cycle is this... you start on a certain path, then after not improving as quickly as expected, you abandon the path in search for a better solution. Before you know it, you're jumping from book to book to book. In the end you would have read the first few chapters in ever book without delving deeply into any of them.

I get the idea that you might be prone to jumping from this to that to that. I'm guilty of this myself but I've started to address the problem by forcing myself to stick with one book or course of action.

pukefoot
brother7 wrote:

Throughout Book 1: Must-know Checkmates, each exercise has 4 blanks to write your Time to Solve. Since your problem is with retention, perhaps going through the book multiple times, each time noting your Time to Solve, is one way to reinforce the pattern.

Also, I think you may be entering a vicious cycle that myself and many other improving players fall in to. The cycle is this... you start on a certain path, then after not improving as quickly as expected, you abandon the path in search for a better solution. Before you know it, you're jumping from book to book to book. In the end you would have read the first few chapters in ever book without delving deeply into any of them.

I get the idea that you might be prone to jumping from this to that to that. I'm guilty of this myself but I've started to address the problem by forcing myself to stick with one book or course of action.

 

Oh yeah totally haha. I'm doing it right now. It's a curse.

IpswichMatt
brother7 wrote:
IpswichMatt wrote:

Thanks for the response. The first of the 9 Yusupov books has a chapter of these - Yusupov must know what he's doing so there must be some benefit to them.

Yusupov's set of Fundamentals, Beyond the Basics and Mastery books are excellent but probably not appropriate for the OP who's ratings are all below 1000.

I think OP's subject line "Trouble visualizing" doesn't address the more fundamental problem. The fundamental problem isn't visualization, it's recognizing the mating patterns in the first place. Polgar's 5334 book is chock full of mating patterns BUT with no textual explanation whatsoever.

Instead of a book of exercises with no explanation (Polgar's 5334), I think OP needs a book with more text explanation describing the features of the mating pattern in words. In another thread, OP asked for opinions on Learn Chess the Right Way by Susan Polgar, which is actually a series of books. I looked at the sample of Book 1: Must-know Checkmates and think this is EXACTLY what OP needs!

Learn Chess the Right Way is a five-book series. I suggest OP start with Book 1 and slowly work his way through all five books. If OP does this diligently, I believe OP can reach 1300-1500 strength with these books alone.

Book 1: Must-know Checkmates
Book 2: Winning Material
Book 3: Mastering Defensive Techniques
Book 4: Sacrifice to Win!
Book 5: Finding Winning Moves!

Note, the primary focus of Polgar's five-book series is tactics. Strategy shouldn't be neglected. For strategy, Winning Chess Strategy for Kids by Coakley is appropriate for OP's level of play and can be studied concurrently with the Polgar series of books.

Yes, sorry - I sort of hi-jacked this thread to talk about the value of chess compositions for my own selfish purposes and ignored the needs of the OP

I agree that Coakley's Strategy book is excellent. Also working on a limited tactics set until you can do them instantly is the right approach

Farm_Hand
StinkingHyena wrote:

 

Honestly I really do appreciate them when they are pretty, this one if black puts up the stiffest defense, while not hard is very nice. (way too many double entendres)  White to play and draw.

P.S. I dont see the board well either, so you have a lot of company.

Oh, that one's really pretty, I say to myself (scrolls down)

"I really do appreciate them when they are pretty"

hah! happy.png