1. e4 c5 2. c3 e5!?

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Avatar of Optimissed

No, I live in the NW of England between Liverpool and Manchester. We have a lot of strong players but I don't know of that one. In any case, I don't pay much attention. We had a famous grandmaster playing on a team about four or five boards above me but I didn't know him so I never spoke to him. I don't think people want random attention just because they're strong players. It's like chatting up pretty women on buses, just because you're there. Something I perhaps used to do but wouldn't do now.

However, the London area is stronger in chess than the NW of England.

Avatar of Optimissed

Incidentally, for the O.P., I've been looking at the position after 2 ... e5 and I suspect that 3. Bc4 might be best. Certainly, Stockfish seems to like it also. But I can't pretend to be sure about it. Another problem with c5 and e5 is that black's impeding the development of both his bishops.

Avatar of fieldsofforce

GM Ron Henley   was selected GM anatoly Karpov to be his second for the 1990 Worlld Chess Championship  in new York against Gary Kasparov. 

Ron Henley taught me many things about chess.. 

 

Avatar of X_PLAYER_J_X

is there really a refutation to 2...e5?

Avatar of Optimissed

Well, I play the Sicilian and I certainly wouldn't play 2 ... e5. I don't know about it losing by force though. I mean, if you step off a cliff, you don't necessarily die but I don't suppose I want to try.

Avatar of fieldsofforce
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

is there really a refutation to 2...e5?

Refutations imply that the color refuting gains a  winning advantage,  Winning advantages in the opening, middlegame and endgame are usually only possible when the losing side has at least 2 exploitable weaknesses.  Refuting a move from the opening requires the color refuting to very skillfully  kill counterplay.  And, from an opening to the  endgame or somewhere in between there is a lot of counterplay to kill.  It is an intrinsic part of chess that every move has 2 sides.  The attacking move naturally creates defensive counterplay move(s).

My answer is no. I don't believe there is a refutation to the move 2...e5!?

Avatar of ImTooGoodForYouNub

I actually met Ron Henley a couple years back in a summer camp and he was teaching us about the c3 , but 2...e5 Is just bad. Just play D4 and Play normally. Nothing is wrong with just doing that.

Avatar of fieldsofforce

ImTooGoodForYouNub.  Originally Ron is from Texas.  He knows a lot about Johnnny Cash.  I met him in Florida

Avatar of MickinMD

Personally, I would have played 3 d4 and see that Stockfish 8 likes 3 d4 best (+0.43) and 3 Nf3 next (+0.40) and likes all other moves +0.11 or less.

Like others here, off the top of my head I would say I'd like to play against 2...e5

But Here is a a reason to prefer 3 Nf3 from one book and warnings NOT to play an early d4 from two others (though I don't think d4 hurts White!):

Sam Collins, in Chess Explained: the c3 Sicilian (c.2007), writes (after 1 e4 c5 2 c3): "2...e5, an interesting move which I've used myself in a few games. There is little theory on this move, which has the idea of saving some time...here, he hopes he can get a Ruy Lopez with a pawn already on c5.  After 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 Bc4, White is threatening...f7, with [a possible] Qb3 or Ng5. Then:

c1) 4...Be7 allows 5 d4 exd4 6 cxd4 cxd4 7 O-O with a nice game for White - Black has no way to challenge for control of the center.

c2) 4...Qc7!? is perhaps the most solid move, since the c6-N can drop back to d8 to cover the f7-P.  This isn't such a bad deal for Black...5 O-O (here castling has the added benefit of getting a R on the f-file so that Ng5 and f4 is an idea: it turns out Black has no easy way of stopping Ng5 anyway) 5...Be7 (5...Bf6 6 Ng5 Nd8 7 f4 also leaves White with some initiative) 6 Ng5! Nd8 (if Black takes by 6...Bxg5, then 7 Qh5 regains the material) 7 f4!

This is the whole point..."

White has an edge here and Collins references the game Sermek-Markowski, Cannes, 1997.

In GM Evgeny Sveshnikov's book, The Complete c3 Sicilian (c.2010), he gives a game, Stripunsky-Maximenko, Kherson, 1990, that follows the c2 variation about and was won by white.

But, after 1 e4 c5 2 c3 e5 3 Nf3 Nc6, he notes: the system 2...e5 was advocated enthusiastically by Alexander Filipenko, a master from Izhevsk. Regrettably Alexander did not gain the grandmaster title, although at one time he was close to this status. However, he helped a lot of grandmasters with opening theory. Filipenko is a good trainer; for a long time he helped Alisa Galliamova and he has a very fruitful relationship with Alexey Dreev.
Here is one of Alexander's wins with this system: 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 exd4 6. Bc4 Nf6 7. 0-0 Bc5  8. e5 d5 9. exf6 dxc4 10. Re1+ Be6 11. Ng5 Qd5 12. Nc3 Qf5 13. Nce4 O-O-O 14. fxg7 Rhg8 15. Nxc5 Qxc5 16. Rxe6 fxe6 17. Nxe6 Qd5 18, Nxd8 Rxg7 19. f3 Kxd8 -/+ (Vorotnikov-Filipenko, Leningrad 1987) .

Finally, IM John Emms, Starting Out: The c3 Sicilian (c.2008), advises the same moves for White as Collins and Sveshnikov, and notes this warning against an early d4 by White:

"1 e4 c5 2 c3 e5 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 Bc4

With Black's pawns on e5 and c5, moving the bishop to the a2-g8 diagonal is appealing
because of the outpost on d5. 4 Bb5 is another possibility, but it's worth
pointing out that playing a la Scotch with 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 exd4 6 Nxd4 is not so
effective because the absence of the c-pawns favours Black. This can be seen in the
variation 6 ... Nf6 7 Nc3 Bb4 8 Nxc6 dxc6! 9 Qxd8+ Kxd8 10 f3 Be6 which is fine for
Black: without pawns on c7 and c2 (which would be there in the Scotch) Black's
queenside majority is just as strong as White's on the kingside."

Avatar of brendan174

I guess the idea is to go Nf3 after e5 and go Bc4, 0-0, d4.  

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www.365chess.com

Avatar of brendan174

I decided to try out c3 sicillian on Friday and guess what my opponent played Smile:

Avatar of Optimissed

Wasn't that lucky. Although your opponent was weak, it's representative of the kind of mistakes and advantages that are going to occur at a higher level. I think I subjectively prefer 3.Bc4 if only to make my opponent think I have the option of Ne2, potentially feeding it in towards d5 and allowing f3 to support e4 and potentially g4 - but that would probably not occur although in some variations it would allow a profitable Qb3. I'm sure Nf3 is at least as good though.

Avatar of Optimissed

It almost makes me want to take up with e4 again!

Avatar of Rat1960
@Optimissed wrote:

It almost makes me want to take up with e4 again!

Well yes !! did you know after 1. e4 you can have active piece placement like 2. Qh5 and 3. Bc4 ....

As Black I could face the second move:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 e6 3. d4 d5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bb5 Bd6 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. O-O Nf6 9. Re1+ Be6 10. Be3 Bxe3 11. Rxe3  
Isolated queen pawn do I care nope ....
The mainline is of course 2. ... d5 but no chance I would play mainline of something I know only one line.

@MickinMD - Does your Research and Development Kit say anything about 2. ... e6 please?

Avatar of Optimissed

I'm fairly sure I once read about 2 ...Qa5 in the Alapin. I don't think it's good but this was 20 to 25 years back and I can't remember how it gets squashed.

Avatar of ImTooGoodForYouNub
Rat1960 wrote:
@Optimissed wrote:

It almost makes me want to take up with e4 again!

Well yes !! did you know after 1. e4 you can have active piece placement like 2. Qh5 and 3. Bc4 ....

As Black I could face the second move:
1. e4 c5 2. c3 e6 3. d4 d5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bb5 Bd6 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. O-O Nf6 9. Re1+ Be6 10. Be3 Bxe3 11. Rxe3  
Isolated queen pawn do I care nope ....
The mainline is of course 2. ... d5 but no chance I would play mainline of something I know only one line.

@MickinMD - Does your Research and Development Kit say anything about 2. ... e6 please?

Well. I play c3 as one of my main openings and E6 should just turn into the advanced french..

 

Avatar of ImTooGoodForYouNub

Also, Advanced French and C3 Sicilian Go together pretty well