1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 (instead of c4)

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LionMind22

I see many GMs playing this move order with 2.Nf3 and then 2.c4 instead of going straight for 2.c4.

Why is that? What openings do they try to avoid by playing this move order?

Sqod

I only recently learned one reason why GMs do this: to disguise their intentions. That's a new concept for me, possibly an important general concept that affects many openings, and I'm still wondering about it myself, and how it relates to what I play and what I should play.

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(p. 11)

A Queen's Gambit of Today

Karpov-Kasparov, 27th match game,

Moscow 1984

1 Nf3    d5

2 d4     Nf6

3 c4     e6

   As so often in contemporary

master play, the Queen's Gambit is

reached by a circuitous route as each

player disguises his intentions. By

carefully choosing his move-order a

player may avoid entering certain

variations with which he is unhappy.

4 Nc3    Be7

5 Bg5    h6

6 Bxf6   Bxf6

7 e3     O-O

8 Qc2    c5

9 dxc5   dxc4

Harding, Tim, and Leonard Barden. 1976. Chess Openings for the Average Player. Mineola, New York.

Robert_New_Alekhine

Often, Grandmasters are trying to trick their opponents into lines they know very well and that their opponents don't know so well. 

dpnorman

If you're using the chess.com Game Explorer, you may also note that there are a lot of games which will show up in the database after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 or 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 but really started with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 or 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4. The chess.com Game Explorer is a bit confusing with the transpositions. The 1. Nf3 stuff was played a lot by people like Kramnik.

Jenium

I think 2. Nf3 also gives Black the chance to try 2... Bf5.

LionMind22
dpnorman wrote:

If you're using the chess.com Game Explorer, you may also note that there are a lot of games which will show up in the database after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 or 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 but really started with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 or 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4. The chess.com Game Explorer is a bit confusing with the transpositions. The 1. Nf3 stuff was played a lot by people like Kramnik.

Very good point. That was another one of my questions. How do I see the moves that actually followed the exact position and not through transposition? I also have CB13 - perhaps possible there??

LionMind22
Robert_New_Alekhine wrote:

Often, Grandmasters are trying to trick their opponents into lines they know very well and that their opponents don't know so well. 

Yes but what is the trick in this case?

dpnorman
LionMind22 wrote:
dpnorman wrote:

If you're using the chess.com Game Explorer, you may also note that there are a lot of games which will show up in the database after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 or 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 but really started with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 or 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4. The chess.com Game Explorer is a bit confusing with the transpositions. The 1. Nf3 stuff was played a lot by people like Kramnik.

Very good point. That was another one of my questions. How do I see the moves that actually followed the exact position and not through transposition? I also have CB13 - perhaps possible there??

On chess.com, you don't really see that unless you go into the specific games themselves.

Yeah, Kramnik and many other strong players have very often played 1. Nf3, after which white can remain flexible and choose further down the road whether to transpose back into the mainline QP openings or to play a Réti/English system.

Hadron

My preference in such cases is

1.d4 Nf6 and if then 2.Nf3 then 2...b5. I prefer this for two reasons (1) It for the time being cuts across any immediate intentions to play c4 and (2) Depending on the level of opponent White most times wastes two tempos to get a pawn on e4

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 I rare get involved with mainly because I do not play 1....d5 but on the odd occasion one does I have always prefered 2...Nc6 and 3...Bg4 if White further delays pawn c4 and if White does not, I am more than happy to play Tchigorin's Queens gambit

ChessOath
jengaias wrote:

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 doesn't avoid anything.Quite the contrary , it gives Black more chances(Black can play Ragozin , white can't play the Nge2 line in exchange variation of the QGD).

The move order has a meaning when white starts with 1.Nf3.

In this case after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 white has forced Black in Queen's Gambit.

Another important transposition is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 when again Black has been "tricked" in Queen's Gambit. 

LOL what? How does it not avoid anything? I'm sure it avoid several defences but that doesn't need to be true for this post to be complete nonesense. Off the top of my head (I don't play d4), the Albin Counter Gambit.

ChessOath

This tricking Black gibberish is moronic too... Who in their right mind could possibly be tricked by this?

dpnorman

These transpositional lines aren't so much "tricks" as they are practical choices to avoid certain openings. For example, after 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6, white can play 3. d4 and transpose to either a KID or Grunfeld, or, if he doesn't like those lines, he can play 3. e4 d6 4. g3 and play a Botvinnik English. 

ChessOath
dpnorman wrote:

These transpositional lines aren't so much "tricks" as they are practical choices to avoid certain openings.

I'm not arguing with that. In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying.

wildmandan

n4

ChessOath

Edit - you know what? I take it all back. Think whatever you want. I can't be bothered to argue with you if you can't grasp such simple concepts.

SocratesSidekick
ChessOath wrote:
dpnorman wrote:

These transpositional lines aren't so much "tricks" as they are practical choices to avoid certain openings.

I'm not arguing with that. In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I was thinking the same thing, lol

dpnorman

Strong players should be familiar with all the transpositional possibilities from their openings. It shouldn't be much of a "trick" then.

SocratesSidekick
jengaias wrote:
LionMind22 wrote:
Robert_New_Alekhine wrote:

Often, Grandmasters are trying to trick their opponents into lines they know very well and that their opponents don't know so well. 

Yes but what is the trick in this case?

Let's assume you are a 1.d4 player and you play against an opponent that plays King's Indian defense.You start with 1.Nf3 and if he plays 1...d5 , you play 2.d4 and you follow with 3.c4.That way you have your "beloved" Queen's Gambit while avoiding your opponent's King's Indian defense.

You trickster, you!

SocratesSidekick
dpnorman
AzraelA wrote:

For GMs, it delays the Slav and Semi-Slav since 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6?! looks weird. You can still get similar positions on move 3.

I use the d4, Nf3, c4 move order to avoid the Albin Countergambit and Budapest Gambit. Saves study time.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but at least one thing you said is factly incorrect: there's nothing wrong whatsoever with 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c6. It has occurred in thousands of games, and black scores every bit as well with it as he does in the usual Slav Defense. 

The fact that it "looks weird" doesn't mean much. It's a solid setup for black which more or less amounts to a Reversed London (assuming white doesn't play 3. c4 and go right into a Slav, which of course is a transposition to a system that's hardly "weird"). And if white chooses to play some system with 3. Bf4 or 3. Bg5, black has a safe triangle structure and no weaknesses, and an equal game.