A Bust to the Sicilian Defense

No Kindaspongey as I said I’m sure 2. e6 loses as well since black is still behind in development and center control.  I just don’t currently have the time or resources to figure out and explain exactly why 

Also Kindaspongey the game you posted wasn’t even an Alapin. Just because white eventually plays c3 at some point doesn’t magically turn it into an Alapin. 

The Sveshnikov-Meijers game is a transposition to the 1 e4 c5 2 c3 d5 line. Can we safely assume that you do not know a winning improvement for White?

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It is absolutely not a transposition into the  e4 c5 c3 d5 mainline. The position after move 3 would never arise from the traditional mainline. 

Maybe this other Sicilian is winning and maybe it’s not. I don’t know, but the purpose of this thread is to discuss the Alapin, not other Sicilians.

Can we safely assume that the Alapin must refute the Sicilian becuase the only game you can find to try to argue against it is one where black manages to draw against an opponent who didn’t play the Alapin but eventually played c3 later on?

1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 c3 d54 exd5 Qxd5 5 d4 cxd4 6 cxd4 is a transposition to 1 e4 c5 2 c3 d5 3 exd5 Qxd5 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 Nc6 6 Nf3. Do you claim that White is winning after 1 e4 c5 2 c3 d5 3 exd5 Qxd5 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 Nc6 6 Nf3 ? Do you claim that there is some winning improvement for White in those moves?

Well then, is this also an Alapin variation?

Or what about this?

I'm just a tad confused

.

So, we can safely assume that you do not know "exactly why" Black must lose after 1 e4 c5 2 c3 e6 ?

As far as I know, there is no single generally accepted authority for chess terminology. My questions are not about terminology. Again, my questions are: Does staples13 claim that White is winning after 1 e4 c5 2 c3 d5 3 exd5 Qxd5 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 Nc6 6 Nf3 ? Does staples13 claim that there is some winning improvement for White in those moves? Those seem to me to be fair questions to ask of someone who has claimed a forced win for White after 1 e4 c5 2 c3.

Oh. I stand corrected.

 the position after move 5 has transposed into something that could arise from an actual Alapin. And yes white is winning after move 5. That's a position we've already covered Kindaspongey. I've already demonstrated why that loses for black.

It should be noted that your logic is still in general flawed. Just because a non-Alapin Sicilian eventually may look like something that could arise from the Alapin does not prove anything.

Who claimed to have proved anything? Again, my questions are: Does staples13 claim that White is winning after 1 e4 c5 2 c3 d5 3 exd5 Qxd5 4 d4 cxd4 5 cxd4 Nc6 6 Nf3 ? Does staples13 claim that there is some winning improvement for White in those moves? Those seem to me to be fair questions to ask of someone who has claimed a forced win for White after 1 e4 c5 2 c3. Of course, staples13 can refuse to answer and we can draw our own conclusions.

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Yes, I've answered that several times Kindaspongey. White is winning after 1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 Nc6. 

That is a position we've covered several times and every time its been demonstrated that white wins due to his superior center control and much more rapid development. Black has to play e6 and then develop both the kingside  bishop and kingside knight before he can castle, and as I've explained several times now he just doesn't have enough time to do that.

There are several games on this thread with that exact line that demonstrate my point

Exactly.

Two lines that White wins:

1. e4 c5? 2. c3! 

1. e4 c5? 2. Nc3 (...g6, e6, d6, Nc6) 3. f4!

1. e4 c5? 2. Nf3?! g6! 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 Nf6

is drawn.

"... White is winning after 1. e4 c5 2. c3 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 Nc6. ..." - staples13 (~5 hours ago)

I was asking about a sequence of moves that includes 6 Nf3. Does that move preserve a forced win, toss away a forced win, what?