A deeper understanding of the Dutch Stonewall?

As promised, my notes on the first few minutes of this lecture by Roman. He says that 2...g6 is a bad move in the Leningrad Dutch. What do you think? If this discussion on the Dutch continues, I will continue posting my notes.

A Universal System v. The Dutch by GM Roman Dzindzichashvili - Length: 32 minutes / Views: 3223

http://www.chess.com/video/library.html?keyword=dutch&author=JRLOK&players=&opening=&skill_level=&category=

"...but the Dutch goes against principles. Against openings like that, you should get a serious advantage..."

@ Elubas - I always enjoy your posts.

Oh boy! This promises to be a good discussion, as 2...g6 is a bad move. White's bishop does not need to travel to g5 in the Leningrad Dutch. One GM's opinion. :)

If the Dutch "goes against principles", so does the Sicilian I imagine ? 

Black's first move in the Sicilian follows opening principles by contesting the center squares with 1...c5.

The Dutch, does it really contest the center with as much power as the Sicilian? 1.d4 f5...well...f5 does stop e4...but White is going to push another well established and good opening pawn anyway...c4. f5 weakens Black's kingside. Whatever the compensation might be after f5, is it worth it?

Last, "going against opening principles" is the opinion of one GM. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion. I might learn something, that's all.

Opening principles are guidelines. They're meant to point you in the right direction.

After this precise move sequence, 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 g6, would you consider g6 to be a bad move? One GM says it is. Any tiltled players care to enlighten us?

Probably entering the Stonewall with 1.f5 is not best.

Entering it through a slav move order should probably better as it avoids many advantageous tries by white and seems to be equal.

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5498 

Of course then you'd probably have to learn the marshall gambit and the catalan. 

Even better examples: the kan and taimanov sicilians!

I wouldn't go as far as some sense, I would lean more towards every sense! I mean from move 1 I bet half of amateurs who play it don't even truly get why ...c5 is played there! Sure they go into their najdorf or whatever, but do they know why those first say 5-6 moves are played? They better, else they won't have any idea what to do in the anti lines.

Black, in the open lines, gives white more space and much superior development, in exchange for the solid center pawns, when black is delaying his development fully trusting the solidity of them! The way black's long term plusses are exploited are nothing like what general principles tell you either. Oh but of course if white castles queenside then the (ok, weak) amateurs are on board again, yay, the king is on the right side now! I can attack!

This is why I don't really get why amateurs love the sicilian so much. The strategy couldn't be any less straightforward. I guess they just say screw that and wait for (perhaps inevitably in some lines) complications?

Ironically, I would almost say the dutch is in a way more principled (but certainly not as good), because e4 for white in a dutch tends to be a bit harder to get in (in a favorable way at least) than d4 in the open, which is a guarantee. If black has to trade his f pawn for the e pawn, he usually has an inferior position; not so in the sicilian. However, most of the time black keeps his wedge on f5 and he's therefore not completely dominated in the center.

But then again, black weakens his kingside . Sure that alone won't lose the game, but it gives black more to think about.

Actually I usually enter it from the Orthodox move order 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 f5, which I believe is best. (In case that the White decides to take on d5, it's preferable for the Stonewall player to recapture with the e pawn.)

Hm yes, I agree this setup can be a bit annoying for Black but I don't think it gives the White anything decisive. Generally I think a Stonewall player should be prepared to content themselves with a draw, draw being a reasonable result for Black. If draw is not an option, then the Stonewall is probably not a good choice of a defense.

1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 g6? is a bad mvoe. Black should play 2...Nf6 first, and wait for White to fianchetto before playing ...g6 himself. He could also play 2...e6, which almost avoids the 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 followed by Bg5 system altogether. 

As far as refutation of the Dutch goes, unless the player is at least IM level, I will simply laugh.

You need not laugh. The "refutation" of the Dutch came from a GM. :)

Did he have a few when he made the video though ?

Not correct. Here's what IM John Watson says about the Sicilian Najdorf and center control.

"First of all, 1...c5 effectively prevents 2)d4, the primary goal of a defence to 1)e4.  ...

2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6. What's going on? Can Black really get away with this 4th pawn move, when it's not even a center pawn? ... The real key to the Open Sicilian is that Black has a central majority. A central majority is a basic positional advantage that should never be underestimated and can compensate for other problems in the position. " -  International Master John Watson

Can someone please tell me if Roman's analysis mentions the move order 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 e6?

OK, a friend of mine who is a diamond member sent me the PGN folder for Roman's video.

The quality was not all that very good. As is typical of Roman, he takes dubious moves as the main line, and ignores critical moves at every juncture.

To start off with, 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3, 2...e6 is not covered, which almost avoids the Nf3, Bg5 system altogether.

After the moves 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5, Roman has 3...Ne4?! as the main line, while also briefly touching 3...c6 and 3..d6. How does he deal with the most popular mvoe 3...e6? He avoids it by ignoring the move altogether.

One more of Roman's work into the trash can.

OK, fair enough.

I would appreciate it if you could share the main line, although I would understand if you reply 'buy the membership'.

Most people would probably play something like 4. ...d5 here to prevent e4, instead of the passive 4. ... Be7.

Edit: Oh okay, I see it has it covered, but if the White gets an advantage in that line it is microscopic.

HATE CAPITAL LETTERS

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