A question for French Defense players

Hi all.

Q: What, according to your experience, is the hardest thing White is able to play against the French Defense?

3.Nc3, followed by 3.e5 a close second.

Here's the catch.  The French is no different than the Sicilian.  You get players that want a Winawer because it is "interesting", which motivates them to study it, and that is all they study, just like the Sicilian Dragon, King's Indian Mar Del Plata, or Marshall Gambit Accepted.

The thing is, if you are disciplined enough to spend the time to study the other lines that may be somewhat "boring", you will realize how easy they are to defend if you know what you are doing.

Therefore, while the Exchange may be a little more "annoying", it creates little to no issues for Black at all if Black knows what he is doing.  In fact, I foam at the mouth in joy if White is stupid enough to play 3.exd5, and cringe if I face 3.Nc3.

It is just like the Sicilian Defense.  An immature moron will spend all his time on the Poisoned Pawn Najdorf, and little to no time on the Alapin or the Closed (which I play as White myself) or the Rossolimo.  That said, there is a reason I don't play the Sicilian any more.  It's NOT because of the lame Alapin, or the Smith-Moron Gambit (More appropriate than Smith-Morra Gambit).  It's because of times I've gotten mauled in the Najdorf or Taimanov or other Open Sicilians!

At the same time, you have to play what you are comfortable with amongst those that can actually give Black issues.  3.Nc3 and 3.e5, along with the King's Indian Attack, tend to give Black far more issues than the Exchange (3...exd5!) or Tarrasch (3...c5!).  If you prefer a slower, space-gaining, more positional game, play 3.e5.  If you are ready to calculate long forcing lines, play 3.Nc3.

I only find Sicilian Closed (Grand Prix mostly) to be hard. Open Sicilian, first, GM Seirawan kind of say it's busted by the Pin Variation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvipCjxqGiM

He's going move by move.

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Second, I play the Kan (when I played e4, Kan and Pin vars were the hardest to face - you don't know where to put your pieces, unless you're educated).

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"The thing is, if you are disciplined enough to spend the time to study the other lines that may be somewhat "boring", you will realize how easy they are to defend if you know what you are doing."

I am not. But against Most openings, White doesn't Need to be disciplined - he needs to know 1 line. here, you need to know about 8. hence why I opened the thread. and even if I do (I once did, I forget it, the odds of facing one of the vars, is small).

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"At the same time, you have to play what you are comfortable with amongst those that can actually give Black issues"

Right, I play Kan - my pieces Has places, his pieces... unless he's disciplined, not so much.

I like a slow, mate-gaining positional game. so I like the Colle-Zukertort... you gotta love the "Marksman" - two bishops combined.

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I am actively losing brain cells reading this reply

That's why I'm here.

Hey BeastBoy, what do you think of this singer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCRWh9BqmAw

good? bad? in between?

I don’t get to play the French much so I can’t really answer this but, I have had good results with the KIA

Personally, I like playing the exchange. It's quite annoying to play against, not because its boring, but because white gets a tiny advantage and you can just wait. For younger people, patience is hard to have 

I think I have to agree with ThrillerFan and say 3.Nc3. In the past I would've said 3. Nd2 but that's before I discovered 3.c5 lines. 

I would probably not recommend 3.Nc3 to a white player though unless they're willing to put a lot of work into it. The winawer is fun sharp bit of insanity and nearly every intermediate french player relishes playing it. There's also several other responses that white needs a plan for. So while it is the "best" there's a lot to know for white.

3.e5 is what I play myself and has the benefit of being relatively compact. It is a closed positional struggle though and french players of all levels will see it a lot and be prepared for it. 

3.Nd2 is perfectly fine and probably the big 4 variation lower level French players will be least booked up on. 3. c5 lines are the modern way of playing it though and are quite comfortable for black. Still if you play this a lot of people will play 3.Nf6 instead. 

3. exd5 is basically a concession you don't want to deal with the french and have faith in your general chess abilities. Objectively it's 100% even with a slight edge to white, but any french player has seen this their entire life and will have something prepared. Interestingly enough this is the only major variation at the master level that scores BETTER for black than white. 

The KIA is legit and an interesting battle, but I get the impression most people who play KIA against the French play KIA in general. 

If you want something that's dubious but quite dangerous, the Orthoschnapp gambit is theoretically losing but practically very hard for black to handle. I'm not certain how widely known the refutation is among French players. 

Other sidelines are mostly just bad. 

As someone who went from 600 to 1500 in one year, I've played the French starting at about 900ish I think and I really struggled against the Tarrasch and the Classical Variations. This is mostly because no one plays them. They all play the Advanced, Exchange, Nf3, or Nc3. But I play a Sicilian against Nf3 and Nc3. I did study the Tarrasch in a book but I never referred back to it in my French Study here from how few people play it.

My point exactly. You don't want to play the best moves, if it lets the opponent choose from 10 different options. easy example: 1.e4, e5. 2. Nf3.

if 2...Nc3 - the best move, then now Black needs to be ready for: Four Knights Defense, Ruy Lopez, Italian, Scotch, all of their variations, and dozens of gambits... better to play a lesser move - Nf6 - Petrov, which leads to one opening.

But... in the French, White can't do it, Unless he chooses the Advanced French.

"If you want something that's dubious but quite dangerous, the Orthoschnapp gambit is theoretically losing but practically very hard for black to handle."

No. c5 and the Orthoschnapp is dead:

I think Black has the advantage - he ctrls d4, White doesn't ctrl d5...

"I'm not certain how widely known the refutation is among French players. "

Very known.

Non of you guys, have mentioned the "Two Knights Variation", is it easy for you guys to handle?

Maybe the One Knight var: Ivanchuk really murderized him there, but, this man is a genius...

Ivanchuk has the ability to transform the French into a d4 opening...

Inconceivable. especially on chess.com - where players are smarter and more patient.

Temporary Conclusion:

Against 1.e4 Black should choose the French.

Against the French (Sicilian, and many more) - 1.d4

"No. c5 and the Orthoschnapp is dead:"

I mean this would surprise me since most French players basically pre-move 2.d5. But, regardless that position is fine for White. I'm not a huge fan of dubious gambits so would never push some to this but wanted to mention it as an option, because it is stressful to face. 

"Non of you guys, have mentioned the "Two Knights Variation", is it easy for you guys to handle"

Two knights has never bothered me.

     White's best chance for advantage is 3.Nc3. As a longtime French player, I like to play the Winawer as it is difficult, double-edged and the most fun. I used to think the advance variation was a easy for black to win, but present opening theory gives white reasonable play. The Tarrasch was always difficult for me, so I've gone with 3....c5, followed with the Queen capture on d5. This makes it pretty simple for black to keep the draw in hand, but I don't get into the difficulties I often experienced in the Lenningrad variation.

     The exchange is only as dull and drawish as the players want it to be and the KIA leaves plenty of scope for the opponents' inventiveness so neither bothers me much. The most troublesome thing is rare unusual tries such as the Wing Gambit, but if you make something like that your usual weapon your opponents will learn the best counter. (The two knights variation discussed here isn't worth mentioning as the overwhelming majority of the time black replies 2....c5.)

Personally, I dislike playing against the Tarrasch, mainly because I haven't got a set response to it. Orthoschnapp can be annoying. 

You missed the whole point on being disciplined.  You say White does not need to be disciplined.  I was not referring to White.  Was referring to Black.  If Black is a disciplined Frwnch player, the exchange is a total joke, therefore advising you AGAINST playing the exchange because you will cause NO PROBLEMS to a disciplined French player.

I see many on the threads post that others should play the exchange because it "annoys Black".  You are asking what causes Black problems, and I am telling you the Exchange or Tarrasch will cause a "disciplined French player" ZERO problems, and hence advised 3.Nc3, 3.e5, or 2.d3, and NOT 3.exd5 or 3.Nd2.

Here is an easy route to equality in the Tarrasch

So when you face this 46 year old over the board, you going to play 3.exd5?  I will simply smile and take back with the pawn!  Will thank you for assuring me at least half a point.  I will then fight you for the other half.  I even play many symmetrical lines, forcing White to commit first.  If he plays an early c4, I will gladly play against the IQP.  Or 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Bd6 6.O-O O-O 7.Bg5 Bg4 8.Nbd2 Nbd7 9.c3 c6 10.Qc2 Qc7 11.Rae1 Rae8 is another line I do not fear at all as it is now White that must show his hand first!