After 1. Nf3 d5 what are the differences between 2. c4, 2. g3 and 2. d4 ?

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Skynet

Hello.

I start with 1. Nf3.
And then I play in some order:
- d4
- c4
- g3 a Kingside Fianchetto (except against the Slav since it would give Black instant equality)

Against 1. Nf3 d5, I was wondering what were all the differences between 2. c4, 2. g3 and 2. d4 ?
What are all the advantages and disadvantages of each of those three moves?

For now here are the disadvantages that I found for each move:
2. c4 allows Black to play 2...d4 which should give Black equality if he knows what he's doing.
2. g3 allows Black to take the center with 2...c5, and then after 3. Bg2 Nc6 if White doesn't play 4. d4 and just plays 4. O-O (which is White's most popular move) or 4. d3 then Black will play 4...e5 and it will be Black who shall have the advantage.
2. g3 allows Black to activate his light-squared Bishop (2...Bf5 or 2...c6 3. Bg2 Bf5 or 2...c6 3. Bg2 Bg4), and if Black does that then White's fianchettoed light-squared Bishop won't be more powerful than Black's own light-squared Bishop. This should give Black equality.

And as for the advantages of each of those moves:
2. g3 allows White to play the King's Indian Attack. But I'm not interested in this system.
2. c4 allows White to play some Reti setups, holding back the d Pawn and playing b3 with a double Fianchetto, which are objectively not very strong for White. I don't think I'm interested in that either.

(I didn't find any disadvantage nor any advantage for 2. d4)

Since I don't intend to play the King's Indian Attack or any Reti setups, 2. c4 and 2. g3 seem to only have disadvantages and no advantage for me.

But I probably missed many advantages and disadvatages. Maybe some stronger players could point them out.

And which one of these three moves do you think I should play?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Impractical

It sounds like you just want to open with Catalan structures.  Nothing wrong with that.  Thus 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 Nf6 3 g3 e6 4 c4

After 1 Nf3 d5 there are many transpositional systems after 2 d4 that do not involve g2-g3, but assuming you really want to fianchetto the KB and don't want lines with d2-d3, then the Catalan structures are the major tabiya.

You will want to organize your study on whether black opts for ..c7-c5 or c7-c6 at some point.  Black can aim for Tarrasch QGD positions with 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 e6 3 g3 c5.  In this line, when white plays 4 c4 and black takes 4..dc4 then it's a Catalan.  If black sits on d5 with 4 c4 Nc6 5 cd5 then it's a Tarrasch QGD Schlechter variation.  If black avoids these with 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 c6 then after 3 g3 it's a closed Catalan.  If you play 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 c6 3 c4 then you are in a Slav and may not get in g2-g3.

Finally, if you open 1 Nf3 and black plays ...g7-g6, then you have to know King's Indian Defense fianchetto variations or the Gruenfeld fianchetto variations.  Generally speaking, by your opening system you are avoiding the Nimzoindian, but not the Queen's Indian lines after 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 d4 e6 3 g3 b6 4 Bg2 Bb7 5 0-0 Be7 6 c4.

In the long run, you have to know basic opening tabiyas of the Closed Openings, so you can develop plans for the middle game as you transpose moves from 1 Nf3.  Each opening features a struggle between opposing development plans, and there is no way around learning the major plans (games of the great masters) in each opening.

Impractical

P.S.  I am not usually this practical in my advice!

Skynet

@Impractical:

It's a constructive post, but you don't really answer my question of what are the differences between the three second moves for White.

I already know that I will play the Catalan, the KID Fianchetto variation, the Grunfeld Fianchetto variation, the QID, the Symmetrical English.

But no, I will not play 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 c6 3. g3, nor will I play 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 Nf6 3. g3. If I am not mistaken these lines are considered to give Black instant equality, because Black can just develop his light-squared Bishop outside his Pawn chain and so White's fianchettoed light-squared Bishop won't be more powerful than Black's light-squared Bishop (contrary to in the Catalan). I wan't to keep White's first move advantage.

moonnie

If you are willing to invest some money there is an excelent video on the very subject on chess24 going in the transpositions possible in a d4 based setup (https://chess24.com/en/learn/advanced/video/how-to-build-your-1-d4-repertoire/intro-mastering-the-closed-games)

One important aspect you are forgetting is that systems with d4/g3/nf3 setups  but with a delayed c4 against d5 allow black to play systems with a quick b5 taking control of the c4 square. These systems are generally quite OK for black.

ViktorHNielsen

1. Nf3 usually says that you want to avoid some queen-pawn openings, but allow something else.

2. g3 simply says that you want to play the KIA. If you don't want to play the KIA, you should probably not play 2. g3.

2. c4 gives some problems to black if he plays the QGA. Since 2... dxc4 can be answered by 3. Na3!?, he should probably play d4. So you avoid the QGA but allow the Reti. It's not just a simple equaliser, but maybe black is fine.

2. d4 says that you want to play the queens pawn opening (eventual with c4), but you avoided all the indian defences (because black already has played d5. The best move order is probably 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4, where black has to choose between QGA, QGD and the slav. If he plays the slav, he is probably equal if you choose g3, but there are different ways to pressure the slav. In the QGD, 4. g3 is fine. 

The only problem with 1. Nf3 is, that you obviously must play lines with an early Nf3 against all lines, and if black plays 1... c5, you must accept a sicilian (2. e4), a symmetric english (2. c4) or something like that.

Impractical

After 1 Nf3 d5, if you want to play a Catalan, I am not aware of a transposition of (2 g3, 2 d4 with later c2-c4) moves that takes away from white the Catalan advantages.  in the London System 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 Nf6 3 g3 Bf5 white still has an edge.

After 1 Nf3 d5 2 c4 the Reti System after 2..d4 is still an edge for white, and you can still proceed with 3 g3, it just won't be a Catalan.

Skynet
ViktorHNielsen wrote:

2. g3 simply says that you want to play the KIA. If you don't want to play the KIA, you should probably not play 2. g3.

Okay, thanks, that's clear. So I won't play 2.g3 since I don't intend to play the KIA.

 

___

 

After having explored a games database for a few days, here are the differences between 2. c4 and 2. d4 that I could find:

2. d4 allows 2...Bf5

2. d4 allows 2...c5

2. d4 allows 2...Nc6

2. c4 allows 2...d4 the Reti

Therefore 2. d4 allows Black three independant openings while 2. c4 allows Black only one independant opening.

So does that mean that I should choose 2. c4 ?

Impractical

There is nothing wrong with the Reti Opening, so 2 c4 is fine.

1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 Bf5 is not so good for black after 3 c4, because d5 and b7 will come under attack and the B is prematurely commited.

adumbrate

if you don't want to play g3 system, then don't play 2. g3 and play 2.c4 maybe transposing to a rozin or a QGD