Alapin-Diemer is the STRONGEST anti-French gambit

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Avatar of DiogenesDue
jamesstack wrote:

There are some gambits that GMs actually do play quite often. The Benko would be one. Another would be the marshall gambit out of the Ruy Lopez. I believe the latter would have been played in the recent world championship match if Nepo would have allowed it. Nigel Short and Boris Spassky used to play the Kings gambit a lot. I think both played it with the intention of gaining an opening advantage. Kasparov also played gambit lines. I seem to recall he played the Evans gambit on occasion. There are probably others that are worth playing on occasion as a surprise weapon but if you are going to use those regularly, the only way to reasonably  expect to get an opening advantage is to play a bunch of different ones, which isn't what I'm seeing happening in the forum threads.

Yeah, you see the Benko all the time, I mean there's Caruana vs. Aro....oops, nope.  Well there's Mamed...oops, nope.  Then there's Shankla...nope. 

Nigel Short?  An example from the 90s doesn't help your case.  Gambits, when they are chosen, are selected not because they are slightly better, but because they are only slightly worse, as Pfren correctly implied wink.png.  So, yes once in a blue moon one will get pulled out, almost never in any critical game.  The surprise factor and avoidance of prep has *some* compensating value.  If you asked any super GM to play one of the aforementioned gambits repeatedly in a WCC match as their main weapon, they would laugh at you.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
1983B-Boy wrote:

Gambits have never been advantageous for White if Black knows how to defend.  This stands to reason...if a gambit really worked statistically and had no counter, it would be played by almost every GM, in every tournament, until it got refuted ...

that's the FAULT in all of your PREMISES. you're ASSUMING everyone is making OPTIMUM moves and that that pawn ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING. it doesn't. if i'm going into a pawn endgame, i will lose EVERY TIME! i couldn't get them even with THREE books! i only understood them with the FICS lesson that ISN'T on demand and that i'd FORGOTTEN already a couple months later when one actually came up. the pawn is initiative, i'm an attacker... ANYTHING (like best moves theory... duh!) that gets me into a position where i have an extra piece to throw at a king is EVERYTHING. it's what i need for my style of play.

in the REAL WORLD, where my theory exists, players make mistakes, often over and over again, and my book gives me directions to an advantage that's PERFORMANCE BASED... the MOST LEGIT metric and i don't care who has a reactionary afraid of progress problem with it. theory that HUNTS 1600-2000 scalps is just what this 1440 needs. i guarantee you too... once i FINALLY get booking, that rating will go up. i think i can EASILY get to 1700 in under a year. i've already claimed a FEW +1700 scalps just winging it when i'm NOT tripping all over myself in the opening.

The best way to stay mired in your rating range is to play gambits exclusively and rely on the other player's lack of knowledge.  Specializing in one or two gambits, like the BDG, etc. might work great in blitz, but it's a horrible way to improve your chess.  You did say you want to get to 1700.  If you cannot win pawn endgames as you stated, then 1700 will be a hard road to travel, but not impossible.  2000-2200 would be utterly impossible.

Try these:

When players say they have a "style" sub-2000, what they really mean is they have burned-in weaknesses they can't get past wink.png.

I like the Danish, but I harbor no illusions.  Same when I play the Bird which isn't even a gambit...but I am knowingly giving up my advantage in playing white.  If you understand you are playing something flawed or sub-optimal but find it fun anyway, go for it.  Just don't expect a big ratings jump thereby.

Avatar of Gluonsghost

Nothing like watching two players argue of a chess opening....it is like observing a screaming contest at clouds...

Avatar of jamesstack
btickler wrote:

  If you asked any super GM to play one of the aforementioned gambits repeatedly in a WCC match as their main weapon, they would laugh at you.

I know I'm speculating here but I think Magnus would have played the Marshall a few times if Nepo would have allowed it. I do agree with you that nobody would really want to play a gambit all the time though. I'm not sure the reason is because a gambit is slightly worse or slightly better. I think the thought is more that gambits are very forcing lines and would be easy to prepare against at the GM level if you know what is coming. Also, most of the time there isn't a need to go all out for a win, so why risk playing a complicated position with a gambit? Another thing is in many gambit lines, it is easy to just decline it and be doing okay in a safe position like what Nepo did with his anti marshall lines.

*

Another thought I have on this subject is that it tends to be a lot less controversial if someone sacrifices a pawn or more somewhere in the middlegame rather than early in the game. In fact the earlier a pawn is sacrificed the more controversial it is. If someone plays the kings gambit in a serious game, it would make the news on every chess website but if a pawn is sacrificed on move 25 we might not even notice.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
jamesstack wrote:

I know I'm speculating here but I think Magnus would have played the Marshall a few times if Nepo would have allowed it. I do agree with you that nobody would really want to play a gambit all the time though. I'm not sure the reason is because a gambit is slightly worse or slightly better. I think the thought is more that gambits are very forcing lines and would be easy to prepare against at the GM level if you know what is coming. Also, most of the time there isn't a need to go all out for a win, so why risk playing a complicated position with a gambit? Another thing is in many gambit lines, it is easy to just decline it and be doing okay in a safe position like what Nepo did with his anti marshall lines.

*

Another thought I have on this subject is that it tends to be a lot less controversial if someone sacrifices a pawn or more somewhere in the middlegame rather than early in the game. In fact the earlier a pawn is sacrificed the more controversial it is. If someone plays the kings gambit in a serious game, it would make the news on every chess website but if a pawn is sacrificed on move 25 we might not even notice.

I will agree on the "later" gambits... but these are by force less of a gamble.  If you play Bxh7+ on move 5, that's a problem wink.png.  If you play Bxh7+ when black has walked themselves into a few extra positional parameters that favor this sacrifice, then it is speculative but often even or winning.  There's also fairly well known knight sacrifices in the center that allow pawn rollers.  I would call these less opening gambits and more positional sacrifices.  

Did you mean that Magnus would have played the Marshall Attack? 

Avatar of dpnorman

Why do we need to play an anti-French gambit when we can play the mainlines and still get an attacking position

Avatar of jamesstack
btickler wrote:

Did you mean that Magnus would have played the Marshall Attack? 

 

Yes I meant the Marshall attack. I guess Magnus may have been bluffing but when watching those games, I felt like Magnus would have gone for it if given the opportunity.

 

Avatar of -BEES-
btickler wrote:

The best way to stay mired in your rating range is to play gambits exclusively and rely on the other player's lack of knowledge.  Specializing in one or two gambits, like the BDG, etc. might work great in blitz, but it's a horrible way to improve your chess.  You did say you want to get to 1700.  If you cannot win pawn endgames as you stated, then 1700 will be a hard road to travel, but not impossible.  2000-2200 would be utterly impossible.

 

I'm normally reserved about getting into opening discussions but I disagree with this. It's pretty common for newer players to start with gambits and then work their way up to more positionally shrewd openings, and I think that's actually a good way to learn. Gambits teach trial by fire how to sac material and checkmate the enemy king many ways, which are skills that will serve any player for life regardless of what openings they end up playing. Gambits are also fun, which from what I've seen is the most important factor for chess improvement. And even if someone sets out to try to gambit every game... they will inevitably have a lot of games that go to a broad range of positions. People will decline. People will avoid.

It is true that most players that get stuck on gambits never become masters but you're forgetting something... Most players that follow their coach's advice and play the paint drying variation of the berlin or the slav exchange will never become masters either. Most people regardless of what openings they play will never make it to 2000, let alone master.

 

Avatar of -BEES-

As for the OP the Alekhine-Chatard is a very serious anti-French gambit to consider. I think the main negatives are that you'll need the full phonebook of French theory for the Winawer, McCutcheon, and other fun things that can happen to you after Nc3.

 

Avatar of DiogenesDue
-BEES- wrote:

I'm normally reserved about getting into opening discussions but I disagree with this. It's pretty common for newer players to start with gambits and then work their way up to more positionally shrewd openings, and I think that's actually a good way to learn. Gambits teach trial by fire how to sac material and checkmate the enemy king many ways, which are skills that will serve any player for life regardless of what openings they end up playing. Gambits are also fun, which from what I've seen is the most important factor for chess improvement. And even if someone sets out to try to gambit every game... they will inevitably have a lot of games that go to a broad range of positions. People will decline. People will avoid.

It is true that most players that get stuck on gambits never become masters but you're forgetting something... Most players that follow their coach's advice and play the paint drying variation of the berlin or the slav exchange will never become masters either. Most people regardless of what openings they play will never make it to 2000, let alone master.

So your premise is that because most players will never become masters, might as well follow a path that precludes that result entirely...

We're not talking about a 1000-1200 player, we're talking about a 1650 player that has gone backwards, and who claims to not be able to win pawn endgames (self-reported, but if we don't buy the story, why respond anyway?).

Avatar of tygxc

#51
There is a theory that a player should evolve just like chess has evolved: first play like Anderssen, then Morphy, then Steinitz, then Lasker, then Capablanca, then Alekhine, then Botvinnik, then Fischer, then Karpov, then Kasparov, then Kramnik, then Anand, then Carlsen. So first play King's Gambit and Evans Gambit, then Vienna, then Ruy Lopez Exchange, Queen's Gambit, English Opening, Ruy Lopez, London, Italian... The player thus evolves from primitive chess to raffinated chess.
There is another theory that one should pick 'good' openings right away, like Fischer played the Najdorf, the King's Indian Defence and the Ruy Lopez his whole career. It is more efficient to stay with the same openings so as to accumulate experience.

Avatar of prrivera

thanks tygxc for saying it nicely

wink

 

 

Avatar of ThrillerFan
dpnorman wrote:

Why do we need to play an anti-French gambit when we can play the mainlines and still get an attacking position

Because people are stupid!

As a French player for over a quarter of a century, my argument has not changed.  The most difficult lines for Black are:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 and now:

A) 3...Bb4 4.e5 Ne7 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c5 7.h4!

B) 3...Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3

C) 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Nxf6+ Nxf6 7.c3!

 

If you are more of a positional player, keep up with the latest theory in the Advance Variation with 5...Bd7 6.Be2 and 5...Qb6 6.a3.

 

Outside of this, Black has little to no problems at all in the French.  Those lines given above are the headaches of a French player!

Avatar of gik-tally

Gambits have never been advantageous for White if Black knows how to defend.  This stands to reason...if a gambit really worked statistically and had no counter, it would be played by almost every GM, in every tournament, until it got refuted

 

that's just it! black DOESN'T know how to defend! i'm finding that in A LOT of lines (not this one), if white memorizes his theory, it's possible to get advantage in EVERY LINE

 

test yourself if you dare

Avatar of gik-tally

I had a VERY GOOD LAUGH reading Mr Lamford's Albin Counter Gambit book and stumbling upon this TIMELESS (written in '83 and STILL considered THE book!) nugget

 

seems HE gets the fact that results matter. all those 1600-2000s? the read chess books too. the point is that the best ideas float to the top and stick. you keep parroting IRRELEVANT grandmaster talking points. no one plays perfectly under 2000 or at ANY level, for that matter as i beat chessmaster tal once (maybe at 2400 rating circa 2000) and a 2200 as well from the lowly 1400s i'm back to again. the point in my study is FINDING all of those mistakes that keep happening again and again replying ONLY with the most perfect moves possible. 

 

you keep talking like INDIVIDUALS actually matter! the BULK of EVERYTHING is the measure iof what works and doesn't... the very same metrics GMs use, only i'm taking THEIR USELESS input out of the equation. stockfish will eat ANYONE kid. that's my fact checker, but it isn't always right.

 

to paraprase alien 3  "It'll stay close... that's where the meat is" the theory is my meat and i'm a gourmet carefully chosing EVERY spice and finding out where the IMPERFECTIONS GMs know NOTHING about exist in the back alley WHERE I LIVE.

 

i didn't see any of you big talkers taking me up on the offer to get +7ed in under 15 moves more often than you know in the real world. crowdsourcing is what brings CLARITY to BS unclear evaluations.

 

YES! many of the STRONGEST moves hide in the sidelines waiting to get discovered like the quade gambit which is PERFORMING something like 10 points better than the classical. the author that chose the quade gambit and as many transpositions as possible into it is on to something! so far, i'm seeing NOTHING but ADVANTAGE in EVERY LINE as exists in the real world where the mothereffing stats are the mothereffing PROOF and don't care what tired GM talking points you want to parrot.

 

play against my ice queen book. you will lose in EVERY LINE until you go out of book and become an insignificant blip in MY THEORY for it HASN'T HAPPENED! i scoured EVERY LINE that appears in at least 1 out of 5 times that of the main line. EVERY LINE... ADVANTAGE!

 

that's what happens when you START OUT with a variation that scores 63:34 on MOVE #4!!! the numbers only go UP from there! +4.5 is the LOWEST (as measured by stockfish son!!!) rated line in my Qxd4 chapter! the LOWEST! that's "beating" (advantage means NOTHING when one blunders and everyone does where my theory DOESN'T

 

you don't want to get humiliated in public do you? i didn't see anyone daring to test THEIR theories. mine's proven. +4.5 no matter WHAT COMMON line ANYONE plays. BTW... there are ZERO grandmaster games in the database to corrupt "my" ice queen system anyways. i'm not playing "to exploit a pawn", i'm playing to skewer your queen.

 

prove me wrong. you cannot. i might not have the skills to win every game, but that won't be the theory's fault. it's as flawless as it can get short of a REAL database like ICC or FICS.

 

as a mastermind personality type... i get sooooo annoyed trying to argue FACTs with emotionals. the facts (stats) don't care what you AND kasparov think about them. you stick with chess THEORY... i'll stick with chess PRACTICE. NO chessbook i've ever owned will be as tuned to my world or especially wide covering. even if you tried EXPLAINING why the theory works, i'd never get it. i have terrible positional judgement, but memorizing theory compensates.

 

maybe no grandmasters play 3...Bf5 4.Qe2 to sidestep the BDG, but it's 1 game in 8 over the  board and i've looked at EVERYONE'S NOTES! everyones! every trap avoided, zero blunders. you just don't get it because of your confirmation bias.

 

as a mastermind, i only care about facts. the lines i'm working on are PROVEN at every step of the way. to NOT play what works? look back at the lamford quote from BEFORE THE INTERNET!

 

why do people keep playing the classical king's gambit when the quade PERFORMS 12% better with THE EXACT SAME constellation of players. you can't argue with stockfish's evaluations either.

 

so, just for fun...  1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.Qe2!?  come on... it's -1.0! what do you have to lose except your pride getting humiliated by new jack theory. EVERY LINE in 2nd most popular 4...Qxd4? +3.3 is LOSING.

4...Nf6 is the main line at -0.9, but it's stats are HIDEOUS and when i get to THAT theory, it should be just as vicious from its PATHETIC 65:32@2,252 stats and 2000 games is a respectable sample size. my job is just to peel away all the bad moves until only winning (or stockfish recommendations more than a pawn better demand it)

i know from EXPERIENCE, now, tracking games that this variation is winning too once all the junk moves are pruned. you don't get 65:32 stats from unsound lines even though y'all are doing so foolishly like facts don't matter. almost like i could guess your political affiliation or something. 

Avatar of gik-tally

The best way to stay mired in your rating range is to play gambits exclusively and rely on the other player's lack of knowledge.  Specializing in one or two gambits, like the BDG, etc. might work great in blitz, but it's a horrible way to improve your chess.  You did say you want to get to 1700.  If you cannot win pawn endgames as you stated, then 1700 will be a hard road to travel, but not impossible.  2000-2200 would be utterly impossible.

 

FALSE! i've ALREADY hit 1650 playing every gambit i could. i'm sure solid stonewall helped, but i DESPISE that opening. it's part of WHY i quit.

 

funny... my rating JUMPED 200+ points playing the smith morra when my sicilian games rating was probably something like 1000. only THAT let me beat sicilians on MY tactical terms. i will drop the smith morra over your dead body! i've never played an opening SO RIGHT. (for me)

 

i will master it. i might never understand the positional concepts, but i'll learn more patterns and some of the ideas will stick. i'll be the NEXT 1700 to humiliate a 2400 in it!

1700 rated amateur beats GM with Smith Morra Gambit

i beat nearly EVERYONE (50:6 or something to that effect) with just 40 lines of theory. 1800s? NOT immune from tactical mis-steps. 

 

IT'S HARDER TO DEFEND THAN ATTACK

this is a fact.

i'm an attacker. a very good attacker. my ratings are almost entirely tactics (and memory maybe) based. i have a bunch of 1600+ scalps from last week. it was starting to feel like i was getting sandbagged. higher rated players are EASIER to play for me. more logical and predictable. i'm more intimidated by 1200 randomness making me trip all over myself honestly. the higher the rating, the more familiar the turf.

 

i'm seeing so much random dreck... the owens, deferred fisher is way too popular, and i clobbered a grob a couple weeks ago with e5/d5 and just trying to find a target. i just broke 1500 BTW. that's +60 right there.

 

 

Avatar of gik-tally

funny, i seem to remember at least one french player saying they hate the monte carlo because it rips the french out of their trench where they don't want to be.

 

i've always had a TERRIBLE record against the french, sicilian, carokann, pirc, modern, & alekhine etc. evasive positional systems drive me BONKERS. the only wins i've ever had against the french were always in the exchange, but i just clobbered someone winging it in the monte carlo recently.

Avatar of gik-tally

hmmm... look at this... here i "beat" an 1853 in the BDG!!!

1. e4 d5 2. d4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 Bg4 6. h3 Bh5 7. g4 Nxg4?? 8. hxg4 Bxg4 9. Bg2 Nc6 10. Bf4 e6 11. Qd2 Bd6 12. Bxd6 cxd6 13. O-O-O Qa5?? 14. Rde1 O-O 15. Kb1 d5 16. Qd3 Bf5 17. Qd2 Nb4 18. a3 Nxc2 19. Kc1 Nxe1 20. Qxe1 b5 21. Bh3 Bg6 22. Ne5 b4 23. axb4 Qa1+ 24. Kd2 Qxb2+ 25. Ke3 Qxc3+?? 26. Qxc3 DUH!

i don't believe i earned it. whatever the tactic that won it was was REALLY sloppy for an 1800 to miss!

7...Ng4?? must have been a mouse slip, or maybe a bit of overconfidence.

13...Qa5?? back to +6

25...Qxc3+?? 

she was sooooo winning. i think it was labor day and everyone was playing drunk. 

 

i see i also won my previous THREE BDGs against 1400s  4 for 4 ain't bad stats AND 1 WAS A 1570

 

looking at my unbooked monte carlo results... i'm 4 for 4 there too as well as a diemer-duhm. winning with unstudied gambits... hmmm

 

i'm seeing MOST of my wins are king's gambit, smith morra and scandinavian but i've kicked most butts in BDG too. i'm a gambiteer

Avatar of MatthewFreitag

I've looked at this briefly...it's not great but also not super effective. Somebody suggested Nd5 above, I've posted a line below that I think gives white sufficient counterplay. In my opinion, just taking on f3 when offered is better. 

 
Personally, I think this is the best anti french gambit:

 

Avatar of tygxc

#60
The Milner-Barry Gambit has some logic: 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nf3 Qb6 6 Bd3 cxd4 
The Alapin-Diemer has no logic at all: why give up a central pawn to put Bc1 at a passive position Be3 between pawns f2 and d4, as if it were a pawn itself?