Alekhine's Defense = questionable?

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Donnsteinz
B1ZMARK wrote:

I'm not really convinced the 5...c6 line solves all of black's problems. I would not play it against a lower rated player, to be honest. White can just develop and have a good game. That is why I am currently learning a Sicilian. 

 

 

True, in the caro structures white normally has a slight positional initiative, but then it's a feature of many openings like the French (Rubinstein var.), Scandinavian, and Caro-Kann itself (not to mention the Semi-Slav and with colors reversed, the Colle opening) which are all respected and by no means even close to being questionable openings. 

The positions that arise from them are of course a matter of taste, and I was only saying that the Alekhine is not a dubious coffee house defense. Also, white will get a +/= kinda position (with good play) in the 6.Be2 lines against almost all kinds of Sicilians, so that's that. happy.png

But in case you're wondering if black can do anything to avoid such positions in the Alekhine's defense, he can try 6...Nd7 (keeping the Bc8) and then g6, Bg7 etc. with a hypermodern set-up which promises a complex positional battle ahead. Check out Topalov - Carlsen, Linares, 2008 (0-1) which shows the dangers of sloppy play by white.

MisterOakwood
Steven-ODonoghue skrev:
B1ZMARK wrote:

I remember, a long time ago, I looked at this on lichess engine. I remember it gave some Bxb2 followed by Qd4, which is the engine move of engine moves. 

I don't remember it now, and im too lazy to find it. But it was something like

 

Fair enough. an engine can probably hold black's position but I agree with you that it isn't advisable for humans.

As white I'd just play 9.Bd3, followed by Ne2 and laugh at black because his position makes no sense, although I'm not checking this with an engine so that idea may be flawed.

I have to basically conclude that 3...d4 isn't fully playable unless black wants to defend that scary position. In a blitz game I think white wins that almost every time.

Although you may enjoy this line, I would NEVER advise anybody to play 2.Nc3 in the Alekhine. People  usually play this in order to avoid theory, but it gets WAY more theory heavy than just having to know the exchange or modern variation.

For example: 

In most of these options, which are almost all for black. White fails to give black any real problems. If you want to prove an advantage: you need to give black the game he wants with 2.e5.

My advice is that instead of learning all of this theory; you just pick one variation in the alekhine to learn well. 2.Nc3 gives black all the options and more often than not, he will be much more prepared than you.

darkunorthodox88
MisterOakwood wrote:
Steven-ODonoghue skrev:
B1ZMARK wrote:

I remember, a long time ago, I looked at this on lichess engine. I remember it gave some Bxb2 followed by Qd4, which is the engine move of engine moves. 

I don't remember it now, and im too lazy to find it. But it was something like

 

Fair enough. an engine can probably hold black's position but I agree with you that it isn't advisable for humans.

As white I'd just play 9.Bd3, followed by Ne2 and laugh at black because his position makes no sense, although I'm not checking this with an engine so that idea may be flawed.

I have to basically conclude that 3...d4 isn't fully playable unless black wants to defend that scary position. In a blitz game I think white wins that almost every time.

Although you may enjoy this line, I would NEVER advise anybody to play 2.Nc3 in the Alekhine. People  usually play this in order to avoid theory, but it gets WAY more theory heavy than just having to know the exchange or modern variation.

For example: 

In most of these options, which are almost all for black. White fails to give black any real problems. If you want to prove an advantage: you need to give black the game he wants with 2.e5.

My advice is that instead of learning all of this theory; you just pick one variation in the alekhine to learn well. 2.Nc3 gives black all the options and more often than not, he will be much more prepared than you.

there is nothing wrong with this for white, who can now play the g3 vienna , or the vienna gambit, or play three knights or the vienna bishop's opening. Stylistically , i find it somewhat peculiar for a player who wants an alekhine game to want to enter conventional king pawn lines where white calls most of the shots in the position. Who cares if White's opening advantage is slightly lower than in other lines? black didnt exactly play 1.nf6 to equalize the fastest to begin with. Most likely you will 2...d5 or even a pirc transposition with 2...d6 for black to get his fighting game.

darkunorthodox88

i also find it quite unusual, for SHORT, of all people to dislike the extra space the Alekhine provides to white  considering he is the strongest player to play 1.d4 nc6 with any regularity, including agaisnt kasparov.

sndeww
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

Stylistically , i find it somewhat peculiar for a player who wants an alekhine game to want to enter conventional king pawn lines where white calls most of the shots in the position. 

 :'(

Taiwanese_Boyfriend

Does Alekhine even plays the Alekhine defense?  No he doesn't.  He only has twenty some games on record and his win rate is 45% while he has lots of games in Sicilian and his win rate is 75%.

So Alekhine doesn't even play Alekhine defense so why should you?

Steven-ODonoghue
Taiwanese_Boyfriend wrote:

 

So Alekhine doesn't even play Alekhine defense so why should you?

Because it's a great opening? Besides, Alekhine is dead, so he can be excused for not playing the Alekhine defense.

pfren
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:
pfren wrote:.

3.e5 d4 is just fine for Black as long as he doesn't get greedy.

I'm not so sure about that.

3.e5 d4 4.exf6 dxc3 5.fxg7 cxd2+ 6.Bxd2 Bxg7 7.Qf3! white casles queenside next, and black's position is embarassing.

The chessable course on the Alekhine gives this line as best play

I don't know why anyone would want to enter this position as black.

 

What's wrong with 10...Bd7 intending castling long?

"Nothing" does not count as a convincing argument...

It's not a secret that the big majority of Chessable opening courses are fancy footworks.

 

 

swarminglocusts
TheOldReb wrote:

According to my database alekhine's defense scores better than 1...e5 and the french and caro kann. If its not sound then I guess they arent either? I played it myself for some years until my rating went over 1800 and I started facin experts and titled players with it. Only then did I have to change to something else as I was getting slaughtered with it.

 

With best play black is -.7 in most lines. But I've taken down experts and many 1900's with it. But with most chess openings best play is a draw right? Tim Sawyers Opening Playbook on the Alien one defense helped me with this opening. Its basically an encyclopedia of positions with 6-8 moves deep for each position. 

 

swarminglocusts
marvellosity wrote:

What are the current fashionable Alekhine lines then? Stuff with ...g6 or something?

When white plays To hold onto the center and prevent black from developing his light squared bishop then black has little resources. Most of my games won in this opening is by pawn breaks and tactics. 

MisterOakwood
swarminglocusts skrev:
marvellosity wrote:

What are the current fashionable Alekhine lines then? Stuff with ...g6 or something?

When white plays To hold onto the center and prevent black from developing his light squared bishop then black has little resources. Most of my games won in this opening is by pawn breaks and tactics. 

I have been playing the Alekhine for 3 years and I do not agree with this statement. When white plays to hold on to a large center, that's when the Alekhine proves its worthiness. I find that the hardest variation to combat is the modern variation where white delays c4.

Here is a few variations that I want to talk about:

Thus, I think the Alekhine is completely playable, and more often than not, white does not know what he is doing and is finding himself in trouble or equality because of it. GM Nick de Firmian - "The game immediately loses any sense of symmetry or balance, which makes the opening a good choice for aggressive fighting players". This opening is good for players who do not aim for equality as black, but rather wants to fight for the advantage.

 

Bobery1

It is a bad defense, if the pawn were to be taken than the queen would take the horse and result in a +2 trade. 

sndeww
Bobery1 wrote:

It is a bad defense, if the pawn were to be taken than the queen would take the horse and result in a +2 trade. 

what

Soybeanmaster96

Of course. Alekhine's defense is very questionable and is very Beta. Sigma Gigachads like me, only play e4 e5, because I am a gigachad.

Wins

Alekhine's is playable. 

It's not dubious and can be played even in OTB classical matches.

The good part about the Alekhines is that not many people know it and that you can get some queenside play.

zone_chess
timeless_thoughts wrote:

The only thing I know is the mainline can someone post more lines which aren't the mainline

 

I like the Mokele Mbembe. It's weird, it's unconventional, it's objectively bad.
But the Alekhine's is so high in criticality that it's fairly easy for white to get an edge.

And with criticality I mean how easy it is to tip the balance, i.e. how tolerant making a move that's not the best one is. Engines don't show you this. Long story Short, to play the Alekhine's you have to know your theory.

It generally works up to, say level 1600-1700.

Wins
B1ZMARK wrote:
Bobery1 wrote:

It is a bad defense, if the pawn were to be taken than the queen would take the horse and result in a +2 trade. 

what

I also have no idea what he is talking about, maybe he thinks that chess players like to give pawns for knights? 

blueemu

 

sndeww
zone_chess wrote:

...

It generally works up to, say level 1600-1700.

If you mean otb, yes. Online, no.

Ethan_Brollier
zone_chess wrote:
timeless_thoughts wrote:

The only thing I know is the mainline can someone post more lines which aren't the mainline

I like the Mokele Mbembe. It's weird, it's unconventional, it's objectively bad.
But the Alekhine's is so high in criticality that it's fairly easy for white to get an edge.

And with criticality I mean how easy it is to tip the balance, i.e. how tolerant making a move that's not the best one is. Engines don't show you this. Long story Short, to play the Alekhine's you have to know your theory.

It generally works up to, say level 1600-1700.

Mokele Mbembe Vavra Defense (1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Ne4?? 3. d4 e6?! playing for 4. f3 Qh4+ 5. g3 Nxg3) used to be part of my repertoire. It led to a lot of short games, as if 4. f3 it's -3, anything else and it's +2. Suffice it to say I dropped that line immediately and went back to hoping for Four Pawns mainlines.