Berlin defence

The mainline of the Berlin defence goes 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. 0-0 Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dc 7. de Nf5 and now instead of 8. Qxd8+ what about 8. Nbd2 instead?

I think this is a better way to keep the Queens on than 8. Qe2.

After 8. Nbd2 play might continue 8...Be6 9. b3 Nh4 (trying to swap off a pair of knights). Now 10. Qe2 looks good for White as the Queen can't be attacked by a knight on d4.

No matter which way Black castles we get a complex, lively game where I think White's chances are better.

I looked at the Chess.com database a little while ago and found only four games in this line (two draws and two defeats for White). Not the best results but does anyone else agree this line is worth a punt?

Why would black play Nh4 ? After a normal move like 9. .. Be7 black equalized and in the endgame the bishop pair might tell

It doesn't have to reach an endgame. White could play 10. Bb2 and if Black castles play 11. Qe2. The Queen can't be attacked by a knight because the d4 aquare is protected by the dark squared bishop and the knight on f3.

Using my positional understanding, which I agree is not so good, I don't see how white has an advantage. Black has the bishop pair, his king is in safety and some pressure on the e5 pawn, which might become weak.

White has some active pieceplay and a better structure, but in a middlegame with queens it might be easier to play c5-c4-cxb3, and if white answers with the typical a4-b3-c4 structure, b3 might become weak since a queen can attack it.

Of course, Pfren will arrive and say that half of what I said is wrong, but then we both (or at least I, I hope) learn something about positional chess.

By the way, white has the ¨bad¨ bishop, since it's blocked by a pawn on e5.

Maybe the belief that white is slightly better is a matter of personal taste, or simply relief at not having to play against the Berlin Wall, which is solid and rather dull. At least with the Queens still on we are (hopefully) guaranteed complex play, even if the position is equal.

In the variation mentioned in my previous comment black isn't attacking the e5 pawn yet, while white is defending it three times. The plan you describe starting with c5 is certainly possible, but the c4 square is guarded by the knight and Queen, and white doesn't necessarily have to play his pawns to a4 and c4. 

The dark squared bishop isn't necessarily bad as it does a valuable job of protecting the e5 pawn, and potentially at least, attacks the King.

if you want an equalish interesting game just play 4. d3

I think the Berlin Endgame is much more complex than the given line.

The idea with c4 was later in the middlegame (when white maybe just hav traded queens), so black doesn't need to care about the worse structure. Then he maybe has the best because of the potential outside passed pawn.

I don't see how white can attack black if he castles kingside. Surely, the knight and queen looks quite aggresive, but black has no weaknesses, and can always play Rfe8 (attacking e5) and Bf8 (defending g7, maybe preparing g6-Bg7 attacking e5) is really needed. Then advance the queenside pawns, since white can't really advance his kingside pawns (This would seriously weaken the king). Maybe even black got a slight edge since his plan is really obvious. 

After 13. Bb2 you only defend e5 1 time, while only protecting c4 with a pawn, so black could even do it as a pawn sac.

Hi moonnie. Yes, 4. d3 looks interesting as does 4. Qe2 and 4. Nc3 (transposing to the four knights game). However, I thought this variation looked interesting and wondered what people thought of it. Obviously, I've found out - not much!

Hi ViktorHNielsen. The idea with c4 is possible but not for a little while yet I don't think (I'm not talking about the diagrammed position but the position mentioned by moonie) that is; 9...Be7 (instead of Nh4) and in my response I said play could continue 10. Bb2 0-0 11. Qe2. In this position black isn't attacking the e5 pawn while white protects it three times. Also, in that position white is guarding the c4 square twice.

I was looking at this position the other day and thought I would reply (a bit late but never mind).

After 11. Qe2 Nd4 12. Nxd4 cd 13. Ne4 white may have a slight advantage.