Can anyone suggest a response to d4 that fits my repertoire?

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dontpanicdave

@firebrandx that's 2 for the Dutch now! I have watched the first 2 videos of GM Williams' Dutch series, and it looks like responding e6 to d4 is a good option for me. I will be trying it out soon. Thanks!

ThrillerFan
Merovwig wrote:

+1 about not learning the KID as beginner.

Actually, if suggesting an opening at all, IT WOULD BE THE KING'S INDIAN!

 

That said, the OP is too low to be studying openings in the first place.

 

However, the French and King's Indian go together like hand in glove.  In both cases, the center is blocked, and it's all about how to play positions with long pawn chains, blocked positions, and understanding the "Pawn Pointing Theory", where the side you attack should be the side where your pawns are pointing.  In the French, that would be Kingside for White, Queenside for Black.  In the King's Indian, that would be Kingside for Black, Queenside for White.

 

A common mistake that beginners make is they will play the French as Black, face the Advance Variation, play 5...Qb6, White plays 6.a3, Black plays 6...c4.  All of this is fine.  Black castles Queenside and White Kingside.  Guess what, Black still should be attacking Queenside.  They try to attack Kingside and get killed because they are trying to attack from their side of weakness!

 

So yes, French players should play the KID and KID players should play the French, but the OP should not be worrying about opening theory in the first place!

poucin

ThrillerFan : why black should play 6...c4 in your french advance?

I don't know where are your beginner's from (USA?), but i've never seen "beginners" playing 6...c4.

Ok it is a main line, but a bit obscure to me, so explaining it to  lower level...

They just should play with idea, and black's main idea in french advance is attacking centre, so 6...c4 would be nonsense for them.

6...Nh6 makes sense (after explaining why not 6...Nge7, though cxd4 and Nge7 is an option).

Black just have to focus on this d4 pawn, and also play f6 at the right moment.

I understand your opinion about KI/French but KI is more complicated to understand that french.

French can be played in a simple way, not KI.

pestebalcanica

What's wrong with the QGD?

ThrillerFan
poucin wrote:

ThrillerFan : why black should play 6...c4 in your french advance?

I don't know where are your beginner's from (USA?), but i've never seen "beginners" playing 6...c4.

Ok it is a main line, but a bit obscure to me, so explaining it to  lower level...

They just should play with idea, and black's main idea in french advance is attacking centre, so 6...c4 would be nonsense for them.

6...Nh6 makes sense (after explaining why not 6...Nge7, though cxd4 and Nge7 is an option).

Black just have to focus on this d4 pawn, and also play f6 at the right moment.

I understand your opinion about KI/French but KI is more complicated to understand that french.

French can be played in a simple way, not KI.

 

I can tell you that I can name at least one person that was a beginner that played 6...c4.  ME!  And what's so obscure about it?  6.a3 weakens b3.  6...c4 seems very natural at that point!

I first learned how to play chess in 1983.

I picked up my first book, Winning Chess Tactics, in 1995.

I picked up my first Opening Book, Winning with the French, in 1996.

In that book, the chapter on the Advance Variation, it advertised taking on d4 against Be2 or Bd3, and advancing against a3.  At that time, I was 1177.  It was explained that with b3 weakened, you advance c4 to make b3 or b4 by White an impossibility, and in cases where the pawn is left on a2, not making b3 weak, then you go after d4.

 

Also, to generalize that Black must attack the d-pawn is hogwash.  I'll play Devil's Advocate here.  You say that playing the French is all about attacking White's d-pawn.  Ok coach, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3, I played 4...c5 and after 5.c3 I played 5...Nc6 and soon played ...Qb6 and yet I got killed!  I did everything you told me!

 

Problem is, the French is a different game with an open e-file!  So don't generalize.  It's bad for your health!

Taulmaril

I thought the old indian was an early d6 and e5 against d4, offering an early queen exchange. The move order you gave is the Czech benoni if I'm not mistaken. 

pestebalcanica

You talking to me? The old indian
Main line: 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. e4
Mikhail Chigorin pioneered this defense late in his career.
Janowski Variation ( Old Indian as well ): 3.Nc3 Bf5
Introduced by Dawid Janowski in the 1920s
Employed by Mikhail Tal, Bent Larsen, Florin Gheorghiu and Kamran Shirazi, apparently, Larsen did play Bg4 as well.

It is because it was an idea of mine, I found out later that it was played in similar fashion by someone else. Old Indian, accompained by a variant where White is allowed to play e4, but not necessarily, by slightly changing the move order Black can disallow an early e4 from White.

DjonniDerevnja
poucin wrote:
amalb3 a écrit :

Just stick to basic priniciples and try the kings indian defencce

its good

1.d4 Nf6

2.c4 g6

look up the opening

here is an example game

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1003820

Sorry but King's indian is highly complicated and doesnt suit at all here.

KI doesnt really follow basic principles, or at least in a complex way...

Just play simple, what looks natural to you.

QGD is nice for that (natural, logical, sound, can be dull but also sharp so could fit to anyone), but if u play french, u can also try to play classical dutch via the move order 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5.

S.Williams made a great video series about this classical dutch in chess.com, which is easy to learn (contrary to KI) :

https://www.chess.com/videos/library?keyword=classical+dutch&author=Ginger_GM&players=&opening=&skill_level=

I too thinks Kings Indian is diffcult. I did put in a lot efforts to learn it last year, but failed. The point is to get an attack going on the kingside, and that never happend for me. KID is much better for superplayers like Nakamura.

poucin

@ThrillerFan : about attacking d4, i was talking about advance variation of course, so your diatrib was does'nt make any sense...

c4 on a3 is of course logical, but playing for this kind of play at "beginner"'s level seems strange to me, a bit sophisticated...

ThrillerFan
poucin wrote:

@ThrillerFan : about attacking d4, i was talking about advance variation of course, so your diatrib was does'nt make any sense...

c4 on a3 is of course logical, but playing for this kind of play at "beginner"'s level seems strange to me, a bit sophisticated...

Going from the flip side, to say that attacking d4 only applies to the Advance Variation is also wrong.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2?! Nf6?! 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4 8.cxd4 f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Nf3 Bd6 11.O-O Qb6 is all about an attack on d4.

Certain lines of the Winawer involve attacks on d4.

Certain lines of the MacCutcheon involve attacks on d4.

Et Cetera.

 

Without anything stating otherwise, it implies all cases, which the Exchange shouldn't apply here.  Then stating that it's just the Advance is just as incorrect.

dpnorman

I have a recommendation to the OP, considering that I've played 1. d4 for probably a slight majority of my chess career and also from time to time play the French Defense:

Play the Classical Slav.

dpnorman

I don't believe in the Classical Dutch anymore as a result of the following line:



poucin

@ThrillerFan : lol...

U should take reading lessons...

Merovwig
ThrillerFan a écrit :

Also, to generalize that Black must attack the d-pawn is hogwash.  I'll play Devil's Advocate here.  You say that playing the French is all about attacking White's d-pawn.  Ok coach, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3, I played 4...c5 and after 5.c3 I played 5...Nc6 and soon played ...Qb6 and yet I got killed!  I did everything you told me!

 

Problem is, the French is a different game with an open e-file!  So don't generalize.  It's bad for your health!

As I see it, you are the only one talking about  attacking a chain base... in a case where there is no pawns chain.

Spectator94

Chigorin

agisdon

If you are looking for a fun agressive opening, then you should play the King's Indian!

DjonniDerevnja
Spectator94 wrote:

Chigorin

Are you talking about the Chigorinvariation in Ruy Lopez? That one I have tried, and it feels good and sound.

ThrillerFan
Merovwig wrote:
ThrillerFan a écrit :

Also, to generalize that Black must attack the d-pawn is hogwash.  I'll play Devil's Advocate here.  You say that playing the French is all about attacking White's d-pawn.  Ok coach, after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3, I played 4...c5 and after 5.c3 I played 5...Nc6 and soon played ...Qb6 and yet I got killed!  I did everything you told me!

 

Problem is, the French is a different game with an open e-file!  So don't generalize.  It's bad for your health!

As I see it, you are the only one talking about talkind about attacking a chain base... in a case where there is no pawns chain.

Merovig - The point was that his message tried to generalize that you attack d4 in the French.  So I played Devil's Advocate and pointed out a line of the French where attacking d4 is not so swift.

Then he comes back and says "Oh, I meant just the advance" (paraphrasing), and I come back and point out many other cases of the French where d4 is attacked.

So your post makes absolutely no sense.  We already know that you've got problems with English from other threads.  You've used it as an excuse, and you think that authors make books, not write them.  So trying to describe what I'm saying in a language where you are inept is horses*it.

The point I was making was that you can't use a single sentence to fully explain the goal of any defense.

The thing about pawn chains was simply my association of why the KID and French fit hand in glove.  Not every KID or French game will have a blocked center, but it's frequent in both.

Taulmaril
pestebalcanica wrote:

You talking to me? The old indian
Main line: 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. e4
Mikhail Chigorin pioneered this defense late in his career.
Janowski Variation ( Old Indian as well ): 3.Nc3 Bf5
Introduced by Dawid Janowski in the 1920s
Employed by Mikhail Tal, Bent Larsen, Florin Gheorghiu and Kamran Shirazi, apparently, Larsen did play Bg4 as well.

It is because it was an idea of mine, I found out later that it was played in similar fashion by someone else. Old Indian, accompained by a variant where White is allowed to play e4, but not necessarily, by slightly changing the move order Black can disallow an early e4 from White.

I was talking to the original poster. I've heard 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 referred to as the old indian. The line the OP gives is 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e5 which I believe is known as the czech benoni.

ThrillerFan
Taulmaril wrote:
pestebalcanica wrote:

You talking to me? The old indian
Main line: 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. e4
Mikhail Chigorin pioneered this defense late in his career.
Janowski Variation ( Old Indian as well ): 3.Nc3 Bf5
Introduced by Dawid Janowski in the 1920s
Employed by Mikhail Tal, Bent Larsen, Florin Gheorghiu and Kamran Shirazi, apparently, Larsen did play Bg4 as well.

It is because it was an idea of mine, I found out later that it was played in similar fashion by someone else. Old Indian, accompained by a variant where White is allowed to play e4, but not necessarily, by slightly changing the move order Black can disallow an early e4 from White.

I was talking to the original poster. I've heard 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 referred to as the old indian. The line the OP gives is 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e5 which I believe is known as the czech benoni.

1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 is not the Old Indian Defense.  It's known as the "No Name Defense" (That's actually it's name).

The Old Indian Defense includes ...Nf6 by Black.

The Old Indian is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 and now:

A) 3...e5, which allows the Queen trade, intending 4.Nf3 e4 OR

B) 3...Nbd7 intending 4.e4 (or 4.Nf3) e5 and the Bishop goes to e7 instead of g7.