Can the dutch easily be refuted?

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White1970

My opinion is, that Dutch is a really good opening. It cannot be easily refuted and I have also played it with pretty good results. But, if your opponent wants to refute it, they are going to play the Saunton Gambit. Staunton gambit is when white plays 1.d4, you play 1...f5, and white plays 2.e4 gambling the pawn and trying to attack your weak king immediately. But you can get a playable position even after this if you know your stuff. If you want to learn these kinds of gambits, consider joining my club where you can practice your gambits in the tournaments we organize regularly. We are going to have a round-robin event on the 25th of August at 5.00 pm Chennai time. The time control is going to be 10+0. Check the notes on the team page and start voting for your favorite opening by massaging me privately. Ok, back to the topic...
If you want more information about the Dutch defense, check out this video by Gothamchess and this video by Jonathan Schrantz. Hope this helps

GaborHorvath
tygxc wrote:

3) It has not been played in a top event since Bronstein - Botvinnik 1951, 71 years ago

 

That is factually wrong. A lot of contemporary top GMs have played the Dutch in classical games, including Carlsen. 

chessisNOTez884

yeah dfour is pretty great move from white.. playing that move these days after that c4 is very solid.. black should basically just copy white here (no other good moves) you see d5 and if queens gambit just decline it.. but f5 is an bad move.. 

chessisNOTez884

i have experienced dfour plenty of times and lost from it.. englund gambit is good but only if white accepts if white declines the gambit by dfivee its gonna be tradegy for black

chessisNOTez884

i have seen some games with d four and c fiveeeeeeeeeee idk whether its good but its worth a try!

chessisNOTez884

e5 d5 c5 

tygxc

@25
"A lot of contemporary top GMs have played the Dutch in classical games, including Carlsen."
++ Yes, that is correct, but mostly as a surprise and not in any top event.
We have to go back 71 years to see Dutch in a World Championship game.
If you think this is factually wrong, then show a World Championship game with Dutch after 1951.
The Dutch ICCF GM Gert-Jan Timmerman played the Dutch Defence twice in the 2009 Correspondence Chess Olympiad: 2 losses. He did not play it in the ICCF World Championship.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1673480
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1956986 

many_hanging_pieces
tygxc wrote:

@25
"A lot of contemporary top GMs have played the Dutch in classical games, including Carlsen."
++ Yes, that is correct, but mostly as a surprise and not in any top event.
We have to go back 71 years to see Dutch in a World Championship game.
If you think this is factually wrong, then show a World Championship game with Dutch after 1951.
The Dutch ICCF GM Gert-Jan Timmerman played the Dutch Defence twice in the 2009 Correspondence Chess Olympiad: 2 losses. He did not play it in the ICCF World Championship.

Actually you are factually wrong and the CM is correct, as you said 'top event' instead of World Championship game. A top event does not have to be a World Championship match.

Magnus Carlsen played the Dutch in the 2013 Sinquefield Cup (a classical tournament), which had the highest average rating of any tournament at the time.

tygxc

@31
Carlsen has played Dutch in 25 games, mostly rapid and blitz.
Yes, he played it in the 2013 Sinquefield Cup against Aronian: as a surprise.
He also played it in the 2017 Tata Steel masters against Eljanov: as a surprise.
Same 2015 Gashimov Memorial against Caruana: as a surprise.
It is quite playable as a surprise to dodge preparation.
Top event is not only world championship, but also Candidates' Tournament. I cannot recall the Dutch played in a Candidates' Tournament. Can you?

Nerwal

<If you think this is factually wrong, then show a World Championship game with Dutch after 1951.>

Botvinnik - Smyslov 1958 game 22.

Tal - Botvinnik 1960 game 19.

 <I cannot recall the Dutch played in a Candidates' Tournament. Can you?>

Radjabov - Ivanchuk London 2013. Also Korchnoi - Tal, Candidates semi-final 1968, game 10.

 

tygxc

@33
Ok I stand corrected.
So last Dutch Defence in a World Championship: Tal - Botvinnik 1960, a white win:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032531 
That was only 1 game and there was no other one in the 1961 rematch.
In Botvinnik - Bronstein 1951 the Dutch was still played in 7 games: 2 white and 1 black win.

So the last Dutch Defence in a Candidates' was Radjabov - Ivanchuk, 2013.
Again a one off, probably as a surprise.
Again a white win:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1712940 

Nerwal
tygxc a écrit :

@33
Ok I stand corrected.
So last Dutch Defence in a World Championship: Tal - Botvinnik 1960, a white win:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032531 
That was only 1 game and there was no other one in the 1961 rematch.
In Botvinnik - Bronstein 1951 the Dutch was still played in seven games.

So the last Dutch Defence in a Candidates' was Radjabov - Ivanchuk, 2013.
Again a one off, probably as a surprise.
Again a white win:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1712940 

Just stop it. You were wrong. You are wrong all the time.

tygxc

@35
I just state the Dutch is not really sound.
In Bronstein - Botvinnik it was played in 7 games: 2 white and 1 black win.
In Tal - Botvinnik it was played in 1 game, i.e. surprise, a loss.
In Radjabov - Ivanchuk it was played as a surprise, a loss.

FrogCDE

The Dutch does not weaken the kingside. White has opened d4, not opening a line for the Q to h5 or for the light-squared bishop to c4. To get an attack going against that supposed weakness, White will now have to move the e-pawn, but Black will be too quick, shoring up the position and castling kingside, after which the f-pawn is a strength not a weakness, supported by the rook on f8 and potentially advancing towards the White king. The f-pawn makes it impossible for White to play e4 right away without losing a pawn (the Staunton gambit, not a bad option at club level but clearly not optimal), and if White eventually gets a supported pawn to e4, Black will exchange it for the f-pawn, getting a central majority, creating more space for the light-squared bishop and opening a line for the f8 rook against the kingside. White does best to ignore this supposed kingside weakness, fianchetto the KB and attack on the queenside.

dpnorman

I don’t think the absence of Dutch games in the World Championships is *at all* evidence of it being refuted. It just means maybe other openings are safer, especially in a setting where the most common approach is trying to win with white and hold with black.

Kowarenai
dpnorman wrote:

I don’t think the absence of Dutch games in the World Championships is *at all* evidence of it being refuted. It just means maybe other openings are safer, especially in a setting where the most common approach is trying to win with white and hold with black.

in your opinion and experience is the dutch a somewhat good and consistent way or combatting against d4 and trying to reach the National Master title? answer is appreciated

ThrillerFan
tygxc wrote:

@8
You are quite cocky for a 2214 rated IM.
I am no IM, but my FIDE rating was higher than yours now.

 

Does not change the fact that your claim is bulls**t in post 6.

It is not even logical.  You say it is unsound because 1...f5 does not develop a piece.  Guess what?  Neither does 1...d5, 1...e6, 1...g6, or 1...c6.  I guess 1...d5 must be unsound too, huh?

ThrillerFan
dpnorman wrote:

No. Although after 1. d4 f5 white has at least 7 or 8 good moves. So it will be a decent amount of work. I guess any opening is, though. 

 

It also depends on how you play it.

I answer 1.d4 with 1...e6, and RARELY face anything other than 2.e4, 2.c4, or 2 Nf3.  The latter 2 I answer with 2...f5.

dpnorman
ThrillerFan wrote:
dpnorman wrote:

No. Although after 1. d4 f5 white has at least 7 or 8 good moves. So it will be a decent amount of work. I guess any opening is, though. 

 

It also depends on how you play it.

I answer 1.d4 with 1...e6, and RARELY face anything other than 2.e4, 2.c4, or 2 Nf3.  The latter 2 I answer with 2...f5.

Mhm, this doesn't interact with what I said about 1. d4 f5, since I wasn't referring to other move orders. If I wanted to play the Dutch and was willing to play the French or Modern or Pirc, I would not start with 1...f5, as you stated.

soothsayer8
Not sure if anyone’s said this yet but if you’re going to play the Dutch as white, make sure you learn how to handle the Staunton Gambit. Very dangerous response which is quite solid as gambits go. Black can easily win the pawn back with a nasty kingside attack. It’s not a refutation, especially not at the master level, but a serious challenge at lower levels.