Can you avoid the Modern Slav when playing the Catalan?

I've been learning the Catalan over the last few weeks, but I've been having some trouble against these lines:

I'm wondering whether there's an alternate move order that I can use to avoid the Slav altogether. Maybe something with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3?

If there isn't, how are you supposed to handle these lines? Do you have to learn the Slav as well?

Nothing is guaranteed, like the gambit being declined.

1.c4 can get you something totally different alright.

So can 1.Nf3 (probably a KIA if you're looking for Catalan)

But with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6

You can play 3.Nc3 and get

3...dxc4 if 4.e3 dxc4 5.e3 and after b5 can lead to a wild game (wait, wasn't the gambit declined?)

3...e6 Semi-Slav and you can play 4.e4 for a wild game of the Marshall Gambit after 4...dxe4

and if not 4...Nf6 5.e5 

Wait...you're playing the Catalan, worried about Slav theory so considering the English?

you can delay c4 until move 5 or so. it allows some other lines but none of them are as complicated as the dxc4 lines in the slav.

The Catalan is completely ineffective against the Slav.

You have to find something else for the Slav.

The fact that you are asking this tells me that you do not understand what ultimately makes the Catalan a viable opening.

Certain openings rely on certain factors.

The Catalan has a similar dependency to the Colle System and King's Indian Attack.  They all rely on e6 being played by Black with the Bishop BEHIND the pawns!

For instance, with 1.e4, the KIA is most effective against 1...e6 or 1...c5 and 2...e6 (1.e4 e6 2.d3 or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3).

The Colle System depends on the hemming of the Bishop.

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 (3...Bf5 or 3...Bg4 is considered the "Anti-Colle" - against both, there is only 1 good move - 4.c4! - All other moves are bad).

The Catalan is the same way.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 (there is the blocking of the Bishop) 3.g3! d5 4.Bg2 etc.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 (there is the blocking of the Bishop) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.g3?!, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.g3?! (If White is to play 3.g3 lines against the Chigorin Defense, 2.Nf3 is better than 2.c4), and 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.g3 are all ineffective!

absolutely true about the Catalan, the Catalan relies on having the only "good" light squared bishop in its territory, if black can get their queen bishop outside of their pawns, then black will dominate the position.

I think the easiest way to make the fianchetto work is with 4. Qb3. If Black wants to develop the bishop outside, he has to give up the center with dxc4.

And in your line after Qxc4 b5 better Qb3 so Black needs to spend an extra move on a6 to prepare c5.

You can look at the database, there are lots of high level games, for example Mamedyarov played the line in many games.

If you want to play a catalan structure then what I play is 4. g3. The positions are easier to equalize according to the engine, but it's totally playable and the white player is probably going to know the structure better. When people say the Catalan isn't playable against the slav it isn't really true. It isn't played at gm level much because it's not a good try for an advantage as white, but it's fine and normally ends up with similar themes to the catalan, which is better than playing an opening you're uncomfortable with. It also scores pretty well even at a GM level, probably since Black would be more prepared for a main line. dxc4 at any time basically just transposes into the open catalan, white will develop the kingside and then play Ne5 and a4 in a lot of lines. The Bf4 lines are also normally pleasant for white, since Nh4 ends up getting you the bishop pair or you can often break with e4.

I was just playing 4. g3 but I kept having trouble dealing with the wall of pawns against your Fianchetto so I'm just learning a line in the Slav so I don't have to deal with the struggles of a Fianchetto with pawns on c6 and d5. Main Line Alapin is fine for me

Been a bit since i drilled catalan lines or played it but i think Qc2 there is pre-mature. Finish developing with bg2, and i think we try an recapture that pawn with one of our knights preferably, depending on what their doing. Theres a line were we go nfd2 and h4.

Yeah the early Qc2 may be why you're having trouble, since it seems like the move that's less likely to transpose to Catalan mainlines? g3 Bg2 is closer to the standard Catalan development plan, and dxc4 b5 is still fine for white and ends up being quite similar to the Open lines (you will need to go over a few lines of theory but if you're a catalan player you should be used to that). It also keeps the possibility of Qb3 in some lines. That said, Qc2 is a more common move at master level, so it's still totally fine, it's just g3 is much more in the spirit of the catalan in my opinion.

4.g3, 4.Qb3, 4.Qc2 and 4.Nbd2 are all decent ways to achieve a Catalan setup against the Slav. And... yes, anyone who claims that the Catalan is ineffective against the Slav, is delusional.

Here is a very brief presentation of 4.Nbd2, which you may adopt and expand yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wd591R-bJI

GM Grivas gives a more detailed coverage of 4.Nbd2 in the first volume of his "opening laboratory" series.

As many have pointed out, 4.g3 is a rather natural way to develop in the Catalan here (followed by the normal Bg2 and 0-0).

Black playing dxc4 isn't really a concern for White at this point, as that'll make White's eventual "Catalan bishop" on g2 much stronger.

In fact, I'd say that White "wants" Black to play an early dxc4, as it gives White the opportunity to develop (or threaten to develop) a strong classical center.

If Black takes on c4, White can recapture the pawn in many different ways. Often the f3 knight hops to e5 or even d2, to hit c4 while opening the diagonal for the g2 bishop.

Long story short: White can simply fianchetto and castle, and doesn't need to use the queen to guard the c4 pawn early on. (White can, but it's not required.)

Don't forget Stonewall Dutch & Tarrasch

You can't avoid the slav. Everyone on this site plays it! With 1. Nf3, one idea is 1... d5 2. c4 c6 3. b3 with interesting games.

I think the point (and maybe the bigger misunderstanding) is that you don't need to avoid the Slav at all. You can play whatever you choose. And if you want to remain in the Catalan "spirit" with the setup, then that's ok. You may end up not choosing the setup in certain situations.

You might remain in Slav with early c6, but you don't have to learn all Slav theory out there. Surely there's not a need to abandon it. Look at the lines you'll face and worry about the rare stuff later.

Well said.