Both are main lines so neither is a "bad" move.
Nd7 typically can lead (if white wants) to more dynamic play where black has more chances to lose but also has slightly better winning chances.
Bf5 typically leads to more static games that tend to end in a draw more often as black forces white to echange a prime offensive piece.
Ok, thank you. I'm gonna try Bf5, i like static positions.
I've played and like both as Black. Not too long ago went to Bf5, but I think I'm going back to Nd7 as the games were more interesting for me.
In the Bf5 line you get the light squared bishop out of the pawn chain. In the Nd7 line you don't.
For me, Bf5 is more dynamic, but is a must in Advanced vary!
In the Bf5 line you get the light squared bishop out of the pawn chain. In the Nd7 line you don't.
In most lines, you do in fact get the bishop out just fine. The difference is that it happens a couple of moves later. Black will play Ngf6 and either recapture on f6 with the other knight, or play Nb6 at some point. Either way the bishop is freed.
Jamie after Nd7 many players continue with Ng5 putting pressure on f7. Black in the process of protecting against sacrificial ideas on f7 will play e6 first to move out the dark squared bishop, giving the king a little wiggle room back there and nullify any sacrificial ideas before playing h6.
"Black in the process of protecting against sacrificial ideas on f7 will play e6 first"
That's only one of many playable moves here. If you don't want to block in the bishop, don't play e6 first. After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5...
Black can play Ngf6, Ndf6, Qa5, or my preference Nb6. Even h6 may be playable (5...h6 6.Ne6 Qb6 7.Nxf8 Nf8), though I wouldn't do it myself.
4...Nd7 is a very dangerous move where Black has many ways to lose in the opening. 4...Bf5 plans a fierce counterattack with opposite side castling where Black has various structural advantages and attacking plans and it is White who must be well-prepared. Many times White loses the h-pawn in the endgame and Black gets excellent winning chances.
I used to play 4...Nd7 but switched to 4...Bf5 when I learned it wasn't boring like all the patzers seem to think.
"Black in the process of protecting against sacrificial ideas on f7 will play e6 first"
That's only one of many playable moves here. If you don't want to block in the bishop, don't play e6 first. After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5...
Black can play Ngf6, Ndf6, Qa5, or my preference Nb6. Even h6 may be playable (5...h6 6.Ne6 Qb6 7.Nxf8 Nf8), though I wouldn't do it myself.
I still think more often then not black is playing e6 at some point after move 5 before swinging that bishop out. Although if you play Nb6, I guess you can't be expected to get it out the other way. I've played 3 rated tournament games in this line and none of my opponents brought that bishop out before playing e6. After Ngf6 Bd3 Khalifman considers all other moves besides e6 to be second rate.
Still, I believe you're right that there are playable lines where you can bring that bishop out after Ng5. But, if you were to search your database for games in this line, I don't think you'd see that happening too often in higher level games. Playing e6 in the opening beforehand is far more frequent.
im new to caro kann, I was wondering 4..nbd7 is the smyslov right?
does anyone have lakdawala's book on the ck? it was my understanding he recommends this, which is odd because being a london and slav player I would assume he prefers bf5...
if someone could confirm this and/or tell me why he would favour it (less theory?) itd be great
bump, cause im interested in hearing more of the karpov 4..nd7 variation
You mean this variation? :P
It's hilarious because in the database it happened 4 times (actually Ngf6???? happened 5 times, but white missed it lol). So it's definitely a thing to know if you play the Caro!
lol. yeah, but im interested in it being played well
Id like to hear from white players if they encounter it often.
There is nothing wrong with 4. Nd7 as some patzers seem to think. Yes there are a few opening traps and knowing these helps a ton in not getting kicked of the board but these plans are fairly typical and can be seen from a mile away. Once in the game black has many plans mostly based on c5 or a5
There is also nothing wrong with Bf5 and black probably has easier equalization than with 4. .. Nd7 however stating you can get a furious attack out of thin air or can often win the h pawn is kind of overstating blacks chances. A decently prepared white player knows how to set enough pressure to avoid the loss of the h-pawn or give black serious counter chances.
The end game often is slightly better for black because of his tight formation and often the B+Q vs N+Q endgame that arises.
moonnie, I've beaten titled players as Black in the classical Caro-Kann inside of thirty moves. I suppose a sufficiently well-prepared player would have less trouble, but how likely is someone who only plays the White side to understand Black's attacking ideas that were only discovered in the last few years?
I think White's best chance for an advantage is in the line 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 11.Bd2 Ngf6 12.O-O-O Be7 13.Ne4 Nxe4 14.Qxe4 Nf6 15.Qd3!
What is black's best in line u gave us?
I have simply question about this position. What is better to play? Nbd7 or Bf5? I have never played Bf5, what's the difference between positions after both moves?