Caro-Kann: Panov-Botvinnik Attack

zerogravity77

After b6 you lose a piece with qa4

AngryMacrophage

Sorry, I was rushing while writing the post. This is the a better move order that doesn't automatically lose:

 


Having the bishop on the long diagonal goes someway towards mitigating white's advantage of greater piece activity while the knight can help defend the kingside if placed on d7 instead of c6. The cxd5 lines lead to Re8+ as shown in the sidelines above which generally look good for black. In the comments I mean "looks strong" from a player's point of view in a game. I don't mean to say that the lines are actually good for white. Nevertheless, passive play from black after Re8+ could lead to white's central king becoming an advantage in an endgame.

There may still be some small mistakes here as this is all worked out from memory. Let me know if there are any please.

Ilusha

Yunni, first line is nonsense, second is real but its a side line, ill show you in class what to do but yoga try to research it further.

AnthonyCG

Why is White playing Bg5 after Black blocks in his light-squared bishop? With it blocked in it's easier to just develop the other pieces and wait.

pfren
AnthonyCG wrote:

Why is White playing Bg5 after Black blocks in his light-squared bishop? With it blocked in it's easier to just develop the other pieces and wait.

What's the point questioning a move which has been played several thousands of times by players rated between 600 and 2800?

6.Nf3 Be7 and 6.Nf3 Bb4 have been played as well several thousands of times. It's pretty much a matter of taste. The IQP positions that usually occur are quite similar, regarding plans and ideas.

AnthonyCG
pfren wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:

Why is White playing Bg5 after Black blocks in his light-squared bishop? With it blocked in it's easier to just develop the other pieces and wait.

What's the point questioning a move which has been played several thousands of times by players rated between 600 and 2800?

6.Nf3 Be7 and 6.Nf3 Bb4 have been played as well several thousands of times. It's pretty much a matter of taste. The IQP positions that usually occur are quite similar, regarding plans and ideas.

I've only seen this position come from queen's gambits and the bishop was always the last piece to move. What are the advantages of moving it early?

pfren

You can avoid the Nf3 Bb4 line, which is quite topical, and also quite reliable.

But I cannot say if it is "better" or "worse"- I already said this is a matter of taste, and at master level, home preparation.

AngryMacrophage
Ilusha wrote:

Yunni, first line is nonsense, second is real but its a side line, ill show you in class what to do but yoga try to research it further.

Chessgames.com gives an impressive winrate for white of 37.8% in the panov botivinnik attack out of 2430 games, suggesting that the mainlines are in need of improvement. My impressions from looking at recent games are that most black wins appear to be due to at least one of four things: 1. White trying something dubious like c4-c5. 2. White trading off his/her pieces early on. 3. Black choosing a structure similar to what I have presented above. 4. Black playing the g6 lines and fianchettoing in front of his king.

In short, it looks like black doesn't do well with the traditional main lines.

Rykba 2.3.2 gives the final position in my previous post exact equality at 6 ply which suggests that it is a reasonable approach. I haven't analysed the other lines with a computer yet. There might be some stronger resources earlier on for white than what I have shown but I will leave them for others to find.

Sidelines also have the advantage of being less common and therefore the opponent will probably have less experience with them - a definite plus for over the board play.

zerogravity77

Well AngryMacrophage, will arguing with 2200 do any good?

Ilusha

There is something fishy about chess.com statistics, its a relatively small selective database but Panov- Botvinnik is being used by players who are among the worlds elite, if there was an obvious flaw in the line as you suggest, do you really think proffesional players whose livelihood depends on chess would insist on playing it?

transpo

Beware of the Gunderam Attack by White

transpo

Metaknight251 wrote:

and what is that transpo?

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It begins with White playing c5. Look it up. There are tons of videos on it on you tube.

http://www.chess.com/opening/eco/B13_Caro_Kann_Defense_Panov_Attack_Gunderam_Attack

transpo

FirebrandX wrote:

transpo wrote:

Beware of the Gunderam Attack by White

Faced it many times in blitz and never knew it was an actual 'attack'. To be honest, I didn't find it to be anything to worry about. Just like the game explorer shows, I'd fianchetto kingside and have a comfortable game. Really if white wants anything from the Panov, the pawn needs to stay on c4. For example, I'm far more tense over 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bg5 than I ever felt over 5.c5

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Gotta know it though. If it takes you by surprise White's alternate plan of attack (establish a 3 v 2 pawn majority on the Queenside) will kick your butt.

blake78613

The thematic ...e5 brake takes the terror out of the premature 5.c5 of the Gunderam Attack,  as every Russian schoolboy knows.  See the Soltis book on pawn structure chess for specifics.

transpo

blake78613 wrote:

The thematic ...e5 brake takes the terror out of the premature 5.c5 of the Gunderam Attack,  as every Russian schoolboy knows.  See the Soltis book on pawn structure chess for specifics.

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The important fact is that you are playing mostly American Schoolboys. Most of them don't know the thematic e5 like every Russian schoolboy does.

Irontiger
transpo wrote:

blake78613 wrote:

The thematic ...e5 brake takes the terror out of the premature 5.c5 of the Gunderam Attack,  as every Russian schoolboy knows.  See the Soltis book on pawn structure chess for specifics.

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The important fact is that you are playing mostly American Schoolboys. Most of them don't know the thematic e5 like every Russian schoolboy does.

That's not a reason. If a line is flawed, you cannot recommend it with the explanation "the opponent probably doesn't know how to play it".

transpo

The line isn't flawed. Nobody here wrote that the line is flawed. If it were flawed no one would play it because it puts White in a losing position.

It simply doesn't maintain the tension in the center in order to put pressure on Black with a different plan of attack.

The Gunderam is a plan of attack where White's initial goal is to obtain a substantial space advantage on the Queenside which in due course will lead to the creation of a healthy passed pawn.

transpo

zerogravity77 wrote:

Thanks, I think I might actually go woth that line. But I'm just wondering if white can play anything other then Qb3

After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6

White's games database responses are:

6.Qb3    1624 games

6.cxd5. 1180. "

6.Bg5. 623 "

6.c5

6.Bf4

6.h3

6.Be3

6.Bd3

6.Be2

6.b3

6.g3

6.Qd3

6.Qf3

6.Qa4

6.f4

As you can see White has a wide range of playable choices.  The alternatives to 6.Qb3 that have been played most often are:

a) 6.cxd5 played in 1180 games

b) 6.Nf3  played in 623 games

By far Black's soundest procedure in the Panov is 5...e6.  The critical d5-point is now sufficiently protected to allow Black to complete his Kingside development easily with ...Be7 and ...0-0. There are 11000 games in the database where Black plays 5...e6.

The alternatives 5...g6, which you are considering playing, and 5...Nc6 are variations that require much greater technical and tactical mastery than the main line with 5...e6.  Also, that Black runs the risk of laning quite suddenly in an unfavourable position.

                                                                                                             With my next post I will explain what I mean in detail regarding, '...much greater tactical and technical mastery..." in detail and lots of variations critical

pfren

5...Nc6 is currently Black's most reliable answer to the Panov. Then 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Nxd5 Nxd5 8.Qb3 has been analysed to boredom (and an actual draw), while 6.Bg5 dc4 7.Bxc4 h6! is also very heavily analysed down to move 30 or so. Black has to be booked up, but IMHO he has perfectly adequate play.

transpo

As I wrote, there are 11000 games in the database that continue 5...e6. There are 6480 games that continue with 5...Nc6, and only 3639 games that continue with 5...g6.