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Caro-Kann: Panov-Botvinnik Attack

  • #21

    He messed up the line, White plays Qxb5 and then Black often plays Qd7, where White can take on d5, check on g5, and take on d7. I prefer Nxc3 after Qxb5 personally.

  • #22

    This is also viable:


    The main ideas here are the development of the light squared bishop to b7 and the Queen's knight to d7. I am not arguing that the move order shown above is the best way to achieve [edit: it is definitely not as it loses a piece- see below for a better option] this but it does give black a reasonable equality (a slightly better pawn structure for a little less piece activity). Black could aim to encourage minor piece trades here with something like h6 followed by move aimed at releasing the pin and claiming the open file for the rooks.

    edit: I missed 11 Bxh7. I suggest playing h6 before castling.

  • #23

    After b6 you lose a piece with qa4

  • #24

    yeah....

  • #25

    Sorry, I was rushing while writing the post. This is the a better move order that doesn't automatically lose:

     


    Having the bishop on the long diagonal goes someway towards mitigating white's advantage of greater piece activity while the knight can help defend the kingside if placed on d7 instead of c6. The cxd5 lines lead to Re8+ as shown in the sidelines above which generally look good for black. In the comments I mean "looks strong" from a player's point of view in a game. I don't mean to say that the lines are actually good for white. Nevertheless, passive play from black after Re8+ could lead to white's central king becoming an advantage in an endgame.

    There may still be some small mistakes here as this is all worked out from memory. Let me know if there are any please.

  • #26

    Yunni, first line is nonsense, second is real but its a side line, ill show you in class what to do but yoga try to research it further.

  • #27

    Why is White playing Bg5 after Black blocks in his light-squared bishop? With it blocked in it's easier to just develop the other pieces and wait.

  • #28
    AnthonyCG wrote:

    Why is White playing Bg5 after Black blocks in his light-squared bishop? With it blocked in it's easier to just develop the other pieces and wait.

    What's the point questioning a move which has been played several thousands of times by players rated between 600 and 2800?

    6.Nf3 Be7 and 6.Nf3 Bb4 have been played as well several thousands of times. It's pretty much a matter of taste. The IQP positions that usually occur are quite similar, regarding plans and ideas.

  • #29
    pfren wrote:
    AnthonyCG wrote:

    Why is White playing Bg5 after Black blocks in his light-squared bishop? With it blocked in it's easier to just develop the other pieces and wait.

    What's the point questioning a move which has been played several thousands of times by players rated between 600 and 2800?

    6.Nf3 Be7 and 6.Nf3 Bb4 have been played as well several thousands of times. It's pretty much a matter of taste. The IQP positions that usually occur are quite similar, regarding plans and ideas.

    I've only seen this position come from queen's gambits and the bishop was always the last piece to move. What are the advantages of moving it early?

  • #30

    You can avoid the Nf3 Bb4 line, which is quite topical, and also quite reliable.

    But I cannot say if it is "better" or "worse"- I already said this is a matter of taste, and at master level, home preparation.

  • #31
    Ilusha wrote:

    Yunni, first line is nonsense, second is real but its a side line, ill show you in class what to do but yoga try to research it further.

    Chessgames.com gives an impressive winrate for white of 37.8% in the panov botivinnik attack out of 2430 games, suggesting that the mainlines are in need of improvement. My impressions from looking at recent games are that most black wins appear to be due to at least one of four things: 1. White trying something dubious like c4-c5. 2. White trading off his/her pieces early on. 3. Black choosing a structure similar to what I have presented above. 4. Black playing the g6 lines and fianchettoing in front of his king.

    In short, it looks like black doesn't do well with the traditional main lines.

    Rykba 2.3.2 gives the final position in my previous post exact equality at 6 ply which suggests that it is a reasonable approach. I haven't analysed the other lines with a computer yet. There might be some stronger resources earlier on for white than what I have shown but I will leave them for others to find.

    Sidelines also have the advantage of being less common and therefore the opponent will probably have less experience with them - a definite plus for over the board play.

  • #32

    Well AngryMacrophage, will arguing with 2200 do any good?

  • #33

    I never had any problems just playing the two-knights variation (Nf6 with Nc6). It's easy to learn and you can blitz all the way to endgame without a headache.

  • #34

    There is something fishy about chess.com statistics, its a relatively small selective database but Panov- Botvinnik is being used by players who are among the worlds elite, if there was an obvious flaw in the line as you suggest, do you really think proffesional players whose livelihood depends on chess would insist on playing it?

  • #35

    Beware of the Gunderam Attack by White

  • #36

    and what is that transpo?

  • #37

    Metaknight251 wrote:

    and what is that transpo?

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    It begins with White playing c5. Look it up. There are tons of videos on it on you tube.

    http://www.chess.com/opening/eco/B13_Caro_Kann_Defense_Panov_Attack_Gunderam_Attack

  • #38

    ah, thank you transpo!

  • #39
    transpo wrote:

    Beware of the Gunderam Attack by White

    Faced it many times in blitz and never knew it was an actual 'attack'. To be honest, I didn't find it to be anything to worry about. Just like the game explorer shows, I'd fianchetto kingside and have a comfortable game. Really if white wants anything from the Panov, the pawn needs to stay on c4. For example, I'm far more tense over 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bg5 than I ever felt over 5.c5

  • #40

    FirebrandX wrote:

    transpo wrote:

    Beware of the Gunderam Attack by White

    Faced it many times in blitz and never knew it was an actual 'attack'. To be honest, I didn't find it to be anything to worry about. Just like the game explorer shows, I'd fianchetto kingside and have a comfortable game. Really if white wants anything from the Panov, the pawn needs to stay on c4. For example, I'm far more tense over 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bg5 than I ever felt over 5.c5

    ____________________________________________________________________

    Gotta know it though. If it takes you by surprise White's alternate plan of attack (establish a 3 v 2 pawn majority on the Queenside) will kick your butt.

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