The Panov is usually considered to be part of the Caro-Kann.
Caro-Nimzo Transposition?
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AndyClifton wrote:
The Panov is usually considered to be part of the Caro-Kann.
Do you mean the Panov line of the NID?
I mean obviously there is a Panov Attack in the Caro-Kann, but I'm considering steering that into this NID structure instead of trying something different. Basically it doesn't seem difficult to transpose from 4.c4, or 4.nf3 5.c4, into this new structure with 6...Bb4. At this point it would be better to study the Nimzo for tips, no?
Well, isn't it exactly the same position? What am I missing here? 
In this case yes it is the exact same because I have highlighted the transposing move to the main line, Bb4.
There are different responses to the Panov attack in the Caro-Kann, and while yes they seem to have the IQP, they can also have very different things going on. I believe these other lines seem to not be similar "Nimzo" lines.
I am just being acquainted with these responses to the Panov attack (Caro Kann) and am looking for a way to address it. The success of the Nimzo for black seems like a good reason for black to step into this well-scoring main-line defense mid-game as opposed to fianchettoing the black-square bishop first or trading the white-square bishop on f3 straight away.
Maybe there is no distinction in theory and that is why Panov players play the Panov, but that is not what you have said and regardless I haven't found much information online for either line.
Jacksimus wrote:
Maybe there is no distinction in theory and that is why Panov players play the Panov, but that is not what you have said...
Okay, since it appears to me to be the identical position, I will now say so.
AndyClifton wrote:
Jacksimus wrote:
Maybe there is no distinction in theory and that is why Panov players play the Panov, but that is not what you have said...
Okay, since it appears to me to be the identical position, I will now say so.
No that's the point, they don't have to be identical, the black player can choose his defense and can avoid Bb4, e6, etc. The defense to the Panov cannot always be a transposition to the Nimzo Indian.
Sep 13, 2012
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#8
Karpov and many other top class players used this transposition. In the book "According to Karpov" from chess stars they cover this. The proposed repetoire for black in this book uses both Caro-kann and Nimzo Indian.
Jacksimus wrote:
No that's the point, they don't have to be identical, the black player can choose his defense and can avoid Bb4, e6, etc. The defense to the Panov cannot always be a transposition to the Nimzo Indian.
If you're answering your own question, don't bother asking the rest of us.
AndyClifton wrote:
Jacksimus wrote:
No that's the point, they don't have to be identical, the black player can choose his defense and can avoid Bb4, e6, etc. The defense to the Panov cannot always be a transposition to the Nimzo Indian.
If you're answering your own question, don't bother asking the rest of us.
Are you being purposefully obtuse?
The other posters have been very kind in responding with good information which I will use. I thank them.
AndyClifton wrote:
Nope. Are you?
More likely a troll.
Nope. Are you?
Sep 13, 2012
0
#12
Modern opening theory is loaded with transpositional possibilities... some of them relatively undocumented. My own favorite discovery along those lines is a transposition from the King's Indian Defense London System into the Ruy Lopez Breyer Defense. The line you've given above turns a King-Pawn opening into a Queen-Pawn opening... my manoever does the reverse, turning a Queen-Pawn opening into a King-Pawn opening.
Here: http://www.chess.com/echess/game?id=56893854
Check out the position around move 12 to 14... it's a Breyer, but Black is at least four moves up.
I've just started learning about what the different openings are in better detail, and by looking into the Panov attack of the Caro-Kann, I found a position that looks like something from a d4 defense:
Now this actual position also arises from like I said the Nimzo-Indian:
However I haven't been able to find much information on the "Panov Attack" line of the NID, nor do I know if white would cooperate to arrive at this position. These are popular moves according to the database and sensible, but perhaps white could stunt my effort to transpose. I have also heard Isolated Queen's Pawn positions, and the strategy surrounding that (whatever it is) is relevant to this position.
I mean I suppose I could try to find what the best general response is in the Caro-Kann, but just look at the database at move 6, ....Bb4 is far better scoring than Be7 (at this point). While I could mount some sort of fianchetto defense earlier and keep it distinctly "Caro-Kann", it seems stronger to coerce the game into this Nimzo, "IQP" position where- if I were better educated on it than my opponent- I would be more comfortable and have better chances. This is a position I should probably be introduced to at some point anyway as part of my chess learning, yes?
Basically I'm trying to plan what I would do in response to the Panov in the Caro-Kann, and considered this. Thanks.