Classical players don't understand Hypermodern openings

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Avatar of DrSpudnik
Ziryab wrote:
DrSpudnik wrote:

This all has been derailed long ago. The OP set up a ridiculous set of generalizations about what's keeping people from improving that dragged in a bogus division between "classical players" and needing to read "My System" to understand hypermodern play. Since then it has gone off into arguments about specific openings that really don't help anyone understand anything about hypermodern chess or even the openings discussed. Given that and the nature of people to argue about nonsense for ages, this will likely go on for a couple more months for dozens of more pages.

Indeed. It is one of the most interesting threads I’ve seen in a while. Was a time when most of the chess discussion in these forums wasn’t beginners looking for that magic opening to get over 900.

Indeed indeed! Magnus Carlsen has shown recently that all that opening prep is of no use once you need to think outside of standard openings. Yet people who spend all day playing bullet with ratings around 300 will still lament the endless trickery of the Fried Liver and declare chess dead.

Avatar of Optimissed
playerafar wrote:
playerafar wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

Nimzowitsch favored knights over bishops

Chigorin liked knights too.
A bishop covers only 32 squares to a knight's 64.
I like to think of that as a fact rather than as a generalization.

Stands. (although somebody doesn't seem to realize that facts and generalizations aren't exclusive of each other. Has he been imagining all these decades that they're digital A or B? Not I.)
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It stands in your imagination, as everything you utter (I think you use voice typing) always does.

Because regardless of the position a bishop can still only move on 32 squares maximum.
Whereas a knight can have up to 64 squares available.

I think you learned how to make logical argument from the likes of Elroch and Diogenes. I know you think they can't be beat but that's why you're in the state you're in. A right state, in fact. The fact is that they can't do it either.

A fact of the rules of chess.
But whoever - could quibble about the semantics of what a fact is.

We certainly could. All of us.

And keep forgetting about facts too.
Now you're talking about the fact that you're always right and make perfect argument every time. Stay on topic!!

Also obvious - a fact can be a generalization but doesn't have to be.
Well done! That actually is a fact and this one's a generalisation which doesn't apply to chess as it's played but only to the potential scope of the pieces on an empty board, forgetting that knights are rather slow.

A generalization can be a fact - but also doesn't have to be. Could be in error.

A generalisation is always a fact just as anything that exists is a fact in itself.

A knight can cover up to 64 squares.
Fact.

Amazing deduction sir!

So now I'll qualify it.
I like to think its fact. And it is. Obviously.

Definitely is one, yes. Well done sir! This is the real nitty gitty of the product of your amazing and wonderful intellect.

Its also a generalization - but an accurate one.
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Getting back to the forum subjects - 
Strong players have now affirmed that 'the two bishops' can be overrated ...
to 'get into' the subject of 'hypermodern' openings ...
knights and bishops and exchanges of one for the other is clearly relevant.
Experienced players know that bishops and knights constantly exchange roles as 'Cat and Mouse' ...
including in the Caro Kann main line being discussed.
Bf5 attacking the knight and the reply Ng3 immediately returning the attack 'favor'.
Point: the dogmatism of 'two bishops'.
Seems to enter into discussions of coaching in the opening.

Wasn't it time to rest on your laurels, some time ago? And why isn't Elroch here, applauding your magnificent contributions? Is he too busy guarding his threads by blocking people he gets his trolls to annoy?

Avatar of Optimissed
InappropriateUsername3712 wrote:

yea the king's Indian story I didn't expect anyone to actually believe but then again it does have some lingering feeling of anecdotal truth. I don't know the actual origin story but I thought that it sounded interesting. The Queens Indian defense has the same story the only difference being that it's only actually true in a non fiction sense. I hope that sheds some supplemental light on the situation

I think it may be true. As I pointed out, I was in India for 5 months in 76 and I heard it there or something very like it.

Avatar of Optimissed

I recall being told a story very like that but I was only half paying attention and probably wishing whoever it was would stop talking quite so much. About the King's Indian, not Queen's.

Avatar of Optimissed
InappropriateUsername3712 wrote:

In case im not being clear FIDE is unaware of the story not to be political and the spreader of disinformation. I apologize if I offended or confused the community, myself being a KID die hard who doesn't play d4-d5 because Kings Indian guys don't like d4-d5 save that stuff for classical

What did that mean though? You mean you don't play it in quick time controls? I like playing against the KID second only to the Slav in 5 mins games.

Avatar of DrSpudnik
Optimissed wrote:

A fact of the rules of chess.
But whoever - could quibble about the semantics of what a fact is.

We certainly could. All of us.

Is that a fact?!

Avatar of Optimissed
DrSpudnik wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

A fact of the rules of chess.
But whoever - could quibble about the semantics of what a fact is.

We certainly could. All of us.

Is that a fact?!

Subjectively, I would say that it absolutely is. In absolute terms, though, there could be quibbles about whether there could be quibbles. I wonder if the quibbles about quibbles fit in to the general mood of quibbling or if they should be treated seperately.

Avatar of Laskersnephew

When the OP talks about "Hypermodern Openings," he is describing opening ideas that were new and somewhat controversial in the 1920s! Every strong player today has grown up with a good understanding of both classical and hypermodern theory. The modern grandmaster is comfortable in the Nimzo-Indian or a Queens Gambit declined. It's all just part of chess to them

Avatar of playerafar
Laskersnephew wrote:

When the OP talks about "Hypermodern Openings," he is describing opening ideas that were new and somewhat controversial in the 1920s! Every strong player today has grown up with a good understanding of both classical and hypermodern theory. The modern grandmaster is comfortable in the Nimzo-Indian or a Queens Gambit declined. It's all just part of chess to them

But still - I think the OP has a good idea - including if one is willing to go around the semantics pitfalls - even if the semantics in the opening post are controversial or questionable.
And the OP's opening post refers to 'novices'.
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Not 'strong players'.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are far over 100 forums here on the subject of the early approach to the openings - 
and if there turns out to be a common pattern too ...
where many strong players recommend 'deep' instead of 'wide'.
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And then display GM games or other master games.
But the novice is playing his/her own games.
It can be kept in mind that most players will never reach 2000 USCF nor its FIDE equivalent ... nor anywhere near those levels. Never do.
Some might say 'Never Premise that!'
but then a point is missed.
The aims of novice players.
Is it 'see what you can do? be all you can be?' Always?
Hint: every player is different.

Avatar of Optimissed

Some players are different and they're the same.

Avatar of playerafar

Hint: every player is different.
Fact.

Avatar of tygxc

@206

"Chigorin liked knights too."
++ That is why he lost his match to Steinitz.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1036308

Avatar of tygxc

@205

"Nimzowitsch favored knights over bishops"
++ No, he valued the bishop's pair.
In this game he sacrificed a pawn with 11...O-O for the bishop's pair.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272092

Avatar of Optimissed
tygxc wrote:

@205

"Nimzowitsch favored knights over bishops"
++ No, he valued the bishop's pair.
In this game he sacrificed a pawn with 11...O-O for the bishop's pair.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272092

To be fair, his opponent was rather weak. White tried to expand in the centre before his rooks were centralised and it all went downhill. Some nice tactics from N combined with bad play from white.

Avatar of Ziryab
tygxc wrote:

@205

"Nimzowitsch favored knights over bishops"
++ No, he valued the bishop's pair.
In this game he sacrificed a pawn with 11...O-O for the bishop's pair.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272092

I was repeating Raymond Keene’s assertion in Aron Nimzowitsch: A Reappraisal, but also have noted the slight tendency to favor knights in my reading of My System and Blockade. He certainly espouses the superiority of the knight as a blockading piece.

Avatar of tygxc

@230

I do not take Keene seriously, he wrote and sold many books, but of low quality.
Of course a knight and a king are best to blockade, but that does not make them stronger.
Here a game by Tarrasch that Nimzovich gave in My System to illustrate the bishop's pair:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1258462

Avatar of Ziryab
tygxc wrote:

@230

I do not take Keene seriously, he wrote and sold many books, but of low quality.
Of course a knight and a king are best to blockade, but that does not make them stronger.
Here a game by Tarrasch that Nimzovich gave in My System to illustrate the bishop's pair:
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1258462

Most of Keene’s books are trash. No disagreement there. His book on Nimzowitsch and one or two others are notable exceptions. The others that seem okay are one on Stein (I don’t have it) and his book on becoming a Grandmaster, which I have and have read.

Avatar of playerafar

Chigorin definitely liked knights.
He has an opening named after him.
d4 d5 c4 Nc6.
Does black 'get away with that'?
Apparently yes. With that particular move order. He might 'survive'.

But in openings that feature d4 d5 as both played very early -
blocking black's c-pawn with Nc6 is usually bad - both strategically and tactically.
Black needs his c-pawn Operational in the opening. For multiple reasons.
Why is Nc6 in front of the c7 pawn 'overplayed' at lower levels of chess in openings?
Probably because many players get E4 E5 indoctrinated into them early on.
And in that kind of game - Nc6 blocking the c-pawn is much less dubious or even Solid.
But that doesn't mean it should be played in Queen's pawn openings.
Similiar for white.
Nc3 like that - great in the Vienna and Closed Sicilian and in some other e4 openings.
But in d-pawn openings - blocking the c2 pawn like that - Not Great.
happy

Avatar of playerafar

Bishop development is critical in openings.
But knight development is easier to discuss.
There's less to it.
That's one of the ideas behind 'knights before bishops'.
Which should be understood but not followed blindly.
Isn't - in good play. Nor is the reverse.
But Na3 and Na6 almost never 'come in' in good opening play.
Nor do Nh3 and Nh6. Nh6 'happens' in the Gurgenidze variation.
We see Nd2 and Nd7 constantly. In good openings.
But Ne2 and Ne7 almost never.

Avatar of Ziryab

Of the twenty legal first moves with White, Explorer tells me there are only two that I have never played: Na3 and Nh3.

However, I often play Nh6 several moves in playing the French against the advance variation.