Hello,
I have seen a post where someone (and also perhaps the line given by Gary Lane ?) give a set-up with a C-Z with huge castle and push g or h.
But i am unable to find games showing this line.
Do you have games with this line, please.
Colle against KID
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Sep 23, 2018
0
#3
As one that has played the Colle many times, I can tell you that the Colle is no good. You have basically 2 choices assuming the game started 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6. In fact, even 2...d5 doesn't Guarantee that the Colle will be useful. For the Colle to be worth anything at all, Black's Bishop MUST be blocked by his own pawn. So here's the rule of thumb of when the Colle is fine and when it's crap!
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 and now:
A) 2...g6 - Colle is crap here. Your choices are 3.Bg5 (Torre), 3.Bf4 (London), 3.Nc3 (Intending 3...d5 4.Bf4 and a Barry Attack or 3...d6 4.e4 and a Pirc Defense), or 3.c4 (Transposing to QP openings)
B) 2...e6 - Colle works here, whether Black ever plays d5 or not, as it is fine against QID and QGD type positions
C) 2...d5 - Here 3.e3 is fine, but you have to be willing to not play a Colle. Now 3...e6 4.Bd3 and you have a Colle. However, if Black plays an Anti-Colle, like 3...Bf5 or 3...Bg4, then 4.Bd3 and 5.c3 is once against crap! You have to play 4.c4 to achieve anything, which leads to what is known as the Slow Slav.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 and now:
A) 2...e6 - Here an attempt at the Colle is Ok, but watch out for Dutch positions if Black plays an early ...f5. With the Bishop already locked in behind the e-pawn, the e5-weakness in the Stonewall is a non-issue and the Stonewall Dutch is fine for Black.
B) 2...Nf6 - Same scenario as 2...d5 above (See Line C under 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3)
C) 2...c6 - Here again, you can attempt 3.e3, but be ready for the Slow Slav if the Bishop comes out before Black plays e6 or if 3...Nf6 as then 4.c4 is almost a must because if you play 4.Bd3 here, then Black brings the Bishop outside the pawn chain and White has nothing as even c4 then loses a tempo when Black takes since you moved the Bishop once already.
So long story short, you can't play the Colle as a catch-all system. Same thing goes with the Torre. After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5, the Torre can be used as a surprise weapon, but this is a bad line to try to play the Torre regularly. The Torre and Colle do go well hand-in-hand. Against 2...g6 systems, you play the Torre. Against early ...d5 systems, you play the Colle, or if they play an Anti-Colle (bring the Bishop out to f5 or g4), then you play a Slow Slav with 4.c4) and if they play 1...Nf6 and 2...e6, you actually have a choice. Both the Torre and Colle are legitimate here, play the one you prefer!
Sep 23, 2018
0
#4
Thank you for your reply. I understand what you mean.
But i still seek games with a C-Z set-up with a 0-0-0 and a h or g push, :-)
Indeed. I totally agree with everyone here...no such luck Colle vs KID. Best is just studying mainline attacks for now. But yeah, after 1 d4 Ng6 2 Nf3 g6 I go for the Torre Attack. The Curry line is similar in that it does involve h4 and Qside castling e.g..1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bg5 Bg7 4. e3 d6 5. Bd3 OO 6. Nbd2 Nbd7 7. c3 c5 8. Qc2 cd4 9. ed4 Qa5 10. h4 b5 11. a3 Bb7 12. OOO Rac8 13. h5 Nh5 14. Rh5 gh5 15. Bh7+ Kh8 16. Rh1 f6 17. Rh5 fg5 18. Bf5+! Kg8 19. Be6+ Rf7 20. Qg6 Rcf8 21. Qh7 mate It's cool as long as black plays mediocre, routine KID development. But in my experience, advanced players will deviate as early as move 3 e.g. 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bg5 Ne4(!?) with a position similar to what Trompwsky advocates are used to. Well, that's my input. Best wishes
Sep 24, 2018
0
#8
DeirdreSkye wrote:
It's well known that Colle is not effective against King's Indian.So when facing 1...Nf6 and 2...g6 you must be ready to change plans.
3.Nbd2 is an interesting idea.
Now white is threatening e4 and transpose the game in Modern defense.If Black wants to avoid that he must play 3...d5.In this case there is an interesting line that has been used by many top players.
This is a relatively unknown line with no theory that produces very interesting positions.
If Black doesn't play 3...d5 then you have again a non theoretical line that creates a more strategic Modern defense middlegame.There are 2 ways to play this line.Either exchange on c5 or e5 or try to keep the tension.Both are interesting and in the second case you might get a Ruy Lopez-like position.
A somewhat more aggressive approach is with Bc4 but the drawback with this line is that the bishop is in a square that is probably best for Nd2.
Another idea is 3.Nc3 preparing e4 and Barry attack if Black plays 3...d5 or 150 attack if Black plays 3...d6(that is Summerscale's suggestion).
After 3...d6 4.e4 it's Pirc and you can play any line you want as long as it includes Nf3.
I just analyzed it and the engine says it's an equal position if you manage to achieve a colle vs KID position. Even though there are better responses that mantain a small edge for white but if you are a colle player it should be okay
Sep 25, 2018
0
#10
I think Barry Attack or if .......D6 150 attack gives white a good game without too much theory. Vg Videos by Summerscale on Barry attack and 150
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haULRgCC5I4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KpOx-mFm0Q
Sep 25, 2018
0
#11
Thanks for your post too (and to have create it, :-)).
The main trouble seems to be the move order.
1.d5 2.e3 so no Barry attack.
1.d5 2.Nf3 white can have to play against Fg4.
This is why switch to a CZ with a early h or g is interesting...but still no games to illustrate this.
Indeed. I recently watched a video featuring one of the Polgar sisters (either Susan or Sophia? I forget) before participating in the forums, who is an advocate of CZ systems. You might try referring to those vids on YouTube if you haven't already seen them, that is.
What's the best play for White with Colle when Black plays KID? Any help much appreciated