Colle-Zukertort, your experiences please

For those who have played the Colle-Zukertort.

1.  What do you like about it?

2.  If you played it for a while then stopped, why did you stop?

3.  Can you recommend books for an advanced beginner player?

Right now I'm thinking of buying "Starting Out: The Colle," Palliser, published by  Everyman Chess, and "The Dogs Of War," by Hatch.  They look good based on Amazon excerpts and customer reviews.

"Starting Out: The Colle" by Palliser is a good start for the Colle, but doesn't cover the Colle-Zukertort. "The Dogs Of War" is one of Palliser's references. If you read Palliser's book and need more, simply find partial games he gives in notes in databases to see them played out. The Colle and its Zukertort incarnation are good to avoid many openings, but not the Dutch. I know a life master who used the Colle in a World Open. He won the under 2400 prize.

The Colle is a very good opening to learn as a beginner. Much like the Kings indian attack, both of them are 'set ups' rather than theory intense openings such as the Sicilian or Ruy. So, a reason i like the Colle is that it is easy to learn and you can start playing it immediatley without huge disaster.

When laying the Colle as White you will have the opportunity to carry out mating attacks and playing it will improve your attacking skills. If you do decide to play the Colle i recommend knowing about how to sacrifice bishops to mate the black king. So, the 'Art of attack' is a good book to read.

Since the Colle is not theory intensive, i would say studying the middlegame and how to attack is better than trying to prepare lines like you would for example if you were learning to play the Najdorf etc. I would suggest playing through games in which the Colle has been played and you will learn ideas from the middlegames that occur. I mean, whites opening set up is going to be pretty similiar in most of the games anyway so skip to the middlegame.

The Colle belongs to a family of openings which are all quite similar. Namely, Torre, London System, and to an extent Colle w/stonewall and the Trompovsky. So, when you get fed up playing the Colle or you want to surprise your usual opponents, you can switch and play the london system for example.

The Middlegames that occur in the Colle will teach you about minor pieces in the middlegame. Usually, White has a 'good' light squared bishop with attacking dutie. Black will probably try to exchange this (via Nb4 in some lines) or even just block it (perhaps by g6 but not neccesarily straight away). Whites other bishop will be 'bad' (same colour as whites central pawn(s)) so trying to get rid of this should probably be on whites to do list in the middlegame. As you know, insted of the c3,d4,e3 set up, white can refrain from c3 and play b3 instead giving his bad bishop more scope. Of course, if white opens the position with e4 and his bishops come to life he may be in the position to sac, sac, and mate!

What i dont like about the Colle is the bad bishop problem. Hence some people prefer other related openings were the dark square bishop lies outside the pawn chain! Nevertheless, the Colle is a good starting point for beginners.  

Unlike other openings, the Colle shouldnt cause too many problems for black if he even knows one prepared line! So i would say it allows some Black players to nearly even skip the opening in a sense. Bad, if your opponent is usually pretty poor in the opening. 

I do have experience playing the Colle and i changed from playing 1.d4 after having a conversation with GM Mark Hebden who recommended 1.e4 for me. My results with the Colle were good at that time but only against players below or around the same level as me (probably about 1500-1700 then). 

I know i went on about much here so il wrap it up! The Colle is good to learn and you will learn from playing through Colle games but you will see that there are better options for white to obtain a greater opening advantage to carry into the middlegame. Remember, the Colle is one of those openings not really played at GM level but in almost every chess club all over the world! You wont surprise anyone with this opening. Learn it, store it, and move on is my advice. I wont suggest any books on it becuase i dont think one is needed, simply play through master games and you will generate ideas from doing that. More fun that sloggying through a book. So, straight to your database, hit openings, select colle and in no time you will be playing it. [although, im not suggesting the Colle is an opening for the simple.] 

 I thought i mentioned the e4 push would free whites bishops. My bad. I guess having a book would be a help of course, but for those who dont want to buy another book, playing through games (any informater fans out there? :p) should be a good help on its own. I honestly think that not having a book on the opening would cause major problems.

Wow.  And I was afraid I might not get any answers to this one. 

GreenLaser, oops, thanks for the heads up on the Starting Out book not covering the Zukertort variation.  I missed that.    I'm definitely interested in the Zuk b3 variations, not so much the Koltanowski.

With GreenLaser's clarification on Zuk vs Kol variations, and digging more deeply on book possibillities, here's what I have so far.

1.  Zuke'em The Colle-Zukertort Revolution, Rudel.
http://www.zukertort.com
http://gregschess.blogspot.com/2008/06/who-is-david-rudel-part-two.html

2.  Colle system: Zukertort variation, 5 b3, Soltis.

3.  The Dogs Of War, Hatch.  (Includes both the Zuk and Kol variations.)

Comments anyone, on these books or others?  I will probably buy two.  I'm a book person.  I've seen some of the d4 Dynamite DVD, for example, and like it, but I need written words and pgn for reference.  My synapse connections are way on the not-photographic-memory end of the spectrum.

Graw81, thanks for all your comments!  Your thoughts seem consitent with my perceptions so far of the Colle-Zukertort.  You may have read my "Confessions" thread about my experiences with openings and particularly the King's Indians and Pirc.  As a beginner, I do like the "setup" style openings.  I see the KIA and Reti as setups to use and and learn about positional ideas, and the Colle-Zuk (reinforced after reading your comments) as a setup to use and learn about tactical and attacking ideas, if I may be sided about it.  (In other words, no opening is purely positional or purely tactical, but may tend one way or the other.)

Great idea to search out games. Thanks. I searched Big DB 2008, eco D05, position resulting after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 e6 4. Bd3 c5 5. b3, so that I get only the Colle-Zukertort variation, and got 1464 games to look at :).  42% 1-0, 30% 1/2-1/2, 28% 0-1.

By the way, I found a nice reference for variations and ECO codes: http://www.chessopolis.com/ecolong.htm  The pgn looks a little weird to me there; it specifies the moves but not the pieces; though it pastes into chessbase fine. I suppose it works as long as you're starting from move 1 and from the starting game setup.

pvmike --

    I would submit that it's because a system blindly follows principles that they (for the most part) deliver playable middlegame positions -- not because the player essaying the system doesn't have to learn principles.  I do agree that a system typically involves a particular piece/pawn setup that a player can strive for, almost without regard to what the other player does.

tr8drboi, thanks for the suggestion on the London versus the Colle.  I like to consider carefully before investing the time to learn another opening. 

I did a game search on the London, Big DB 2008, eco A48, position resulting after  1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bf4.  I was surprised to see the stats approx equally divided for white, black, and draw: 8054 games, 33% 1-0, 32% 1/2-1/2, 35% 0-1.  I know they're just stats and at M and GM level, but still.

By the way, the stats for KIA against some of the better black defenses come out about the same, approx 33, 33, 33, which I also find discouraging if I'm playing a strong opponent, like I am now.

When you mentioned that the queen's bishop is trapped in the colle, are you referring to the Kotanowski 5.c3 or Zukertort 5.b3 or both?  Just wondering as the bishop is trapped worse in the Kot.

I'm already getting used to some patterns and tactics in the Zukertort with the bishops on parallel diagonals, at least in the beginning, and the c file tending to open up.  With some openings it seems easier to remember the patterns.  That's something I like about the Indians, too.  I suppose that's something that a little time would remedy with any opening.

Anyway, keep the ideas and thoughts coming.  It's all good and very much appreciated.

Chuckg99 if you look in MCO at the Kings Indian Attack, theses are the moves listed, 1.Nf3,2.g3,3.Bg2,4.0-0,5.d3,6.Nbd2,7.e4 note the absence of blacks moves.

And this is the first line of the introduction

 "The Kings Indian Attack is not, strictly speaking, an opening, but a path for white to follow regardless of Black's opening moves." 

I don't know?  I'm not liking the books available. 

On The Dogs Of War, I did as many "surprise me" excerpt searches as amazon would allow.  The very first game was a Zuk b3 game.  The rest of them, about 6, were all Kot c3 games.  Also a lot of the games were from players rated below master so that I wouldn't be able to grab the games in a chessbase DB search to follow and annotate the games on the computer the easy way.

The Colle System: b3, Soltis, didn't get very good reviews.  It was considered to be an incomplete treatment.

Zuke'em will probably have the most information since it's 2008 and dedicated to the Zukertort.  The samples from chapters from the web site above though indicate that the book has more verbosity than I like.   I like move-by-move explanations, and plan ideas, but I have a low fluff tollerance in technical books, at least as a preference.

The Zuke'em book is not in stock at Amazon nor at B & N.  It can be orded off the author's web site.  I may try that.

I wish there was a Starting Out: Zukertort book, by Everymann.  That would be great!

Aquaman - re:London System stats - it is the one line of the System that causes the most trouble 3...c5. However, once you factor in 4. e3, Nc6 5.Be2 the stats are equal in that line too - giving the system much better than equal lines I think. In fact the king bishop move is still the only variation that needs to be played up to this point in the "system".

I played the Zukertort for years and I have to say I really don't like it. In some ways I'd rather play the traditional Colle - the dark squared Bishop will be fine in the long term after e4. The Zukertort looks pretty when Black plays something silly, like allowing White to take on c5 and opening lines for both Bishops against the Black kingside, but Black is under no obligation to do this and a timely exchange on d4 tends to leave White's Bishop more trapped (behind d4) than in the main line Colle. Also, in some lines the weakness of c3 can be a problem, but not in the main line (though I think both are pretty poor, to be honest).

The two books I got my Colle stuff from were Lane's Ultimate Colle and Killer Chess Opening Repertoire (can't remember who by) and the coverage was reasonable in both. Both books DO feature a lot of spectacular wins agains lousy Black play and very few games where Black plays really well- but then who wants to fill a White repertoire book with draws and Black wins?

As for the London System - it's a good way to give Black an extra tempo by prematurely developing your Bishop, and you'll probably concede the b1-h7 diagonal to Black. My honest opinion is that Black stands better here.

What turned 1. d4 around for me as an opening (went from about 50% wins to about 85%, against similar opposition) was 2. c4. Sharper, more ambitious, and still with lots of options to avoid theory, usually with an easier game than the Colle.

Thanks for the sobering thoughts, warris, and suggestions on a couple more books.  All, I appreciate the varying points of view. 

I haven't found a colle-zuk book yet that thrills me.  They don't compare to some of the great books written on the more positional openings; Kings Indian books by Emms, Gallagher; Pirc by Albert&Chernin; English by McDonald (and probably Kosten, though I haven't looked at that one.) I'll probably buy Zuke'em when it comes out in a couple weeks. I emailed the author.  He said it's in revision for lots of typos, though none found in the analysis, and should be on the shelves in a couple weeks.

I don't expect the Zuk to be a long-term, one-opening, white repertoire for me.  Just a relatively simple, setup-style opening from which to learn some king side attack and defense.

The toughest decision for me is just where to spend my time.  There's so much to learn.  I do find the openings fascinating, though.  As long as I study them to learn positional and tactical ideas, in the openings as well as the resulting games, then I'm learning much more than just the opening sequences.  That's why the quality of text books available is a factor for me.

By the way, on the suggestion above to study "Art of attack in chess," I have it.  Saw a used one in perfect condition as a noob and knew it was a classic, so I grabbed it.  Tough study, and I'm moving snail-slow through the book, but I get that fantastic feeling that I'm leaning from a profound mind on the topic; that of Vukovic. 

OT but passed up a used "My System" in perfect condition as a noob.  It looked intriguing but I wanted to go home and read some reviews before deciding.  Went back and it was gone!  Oh well, bought a new one.  That's a great read on positional chess.  I'm studying that one slowly too, though faster and easier than Art of attack.  I think I'm just a positional player ;).  As I mentioned, studying the Zuk opening for me would be to strengthen the tactical and attacking aspect of my game.