Colle-Zukertort, your experiences please

 Now that is more to the point. I would appreciate it more if the quoted post was backed up by schofio with a couple of 2600+ v 2600+ games (NOT rapid chess please! minimum 120 min/40-moves).

normajeanyates wrote: schofio wrote: The Colle-Zukertort is one of the few d4 sidelines (i.e. not 1.d4 2.c4) that 2600+ players regularly use against each other. Although the prospect of a kingside attack (double bishop sacrifice, anyone?) is always there, top players use it to gain a genuine positional advantage for white. However, it is only best when played against a black setup with d5 and e6.

 Now that is more to the point. I would appreciate it more if the quoted post was backed up by schofio with a couple of 2600+ v 2600+ games (NOT rapid chess please! minimum 120 min/40-moves).

Here's another advertisement for the C-Z: Very strong players (as Black) AVOID it...if you are a strong player who opens up with the C-Z, your opponent will very rarely play the "Main Line," instead they will use any of several pet defenses because they don't want to deal with the problems Black has  in the real line.

Here's proof: Vlatko Kovacevic has used the C-Z against all kinds of openings...and yet in the 16 games that went 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 [or 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3], do you know how many times his NM/IM/GM opponents have played the "Normal" "mainline" 3...e6?

1.

Note that Vlatko has more games in that ratings band where he has played  a C-Z then any other player in the world, and even he only could find an opponent desiring to play the "Main Line" 1 time [not counting those cases where his opponent played e6 early.

-David

Here's another advertisement for the C-Z: Very strong players (as Black) AVOID it...if you are a strong player who opens up with the C-Z, your opponent will very rarely play the "Main Line," instead they will use any of several pet defenses because they don't want to deal with the problems Black has  in the real line.

Here's proof: Vlatko Kovacevic has used the C-Z against all kinds of openings...and yet in the 16 games that went 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 [or 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3], do you know how many times his NM/IM/GM opponents have played the "Normal" "mainline" 3...e6?

1.

Note that Vlatko has more games in that ratings band where he has played  a C-Z then any other player in the world, and even he only could find an opponent desiring to play the "Main Line" 1 time [not counting those cases where his opponent played e6 early.

-David

 Would it be too much to ask to post one? Just so that it is on record on this thread. 2500+ v 2500+, at proper (ie not rapid) time controls. Say min. 90 min/40moves [first time-control] + min. 60 min/40 moves. Or, equivalent fischerincrements - per-move/per-moveblock. Unannotated chess games are public-domain, you see.

Yes we've all heard of the brilliant Yusupov. But a game is what is needed here to complete the story. So, if it is not too inconvenient to you, please do the needful.

 It's only inconvenient in that my copy of CA9 is on another computer system [on the same hardware] so I had to logout and log back in.

Here are some high-level games for you.

Before showing them, though, I'd like to point out that Bruzon [2650] played Anand [2800] with the C-Z in a rapid-play game [Leon 2006] and WON with it.I'm not including it here because my version is heavily annotated. It is in section 5.2 of chapter 4 of Zuke 'Em.

 The last AND the first, ozzie. [or if you prefer: the first only demonstates that GMs blunder too.]

But the others : yes, i do think they fill in what was so far missing from this thread. 

Zukertort, thank you for the post. It was most useful.

I think Yusupov only plays the colle-zukertort when opponents play early e6, i.e. to avoid queen's Indian/Nimzo indian which is an resonable idea. Playing it against for example KID  doesn't have much point. That's what I think playing a system is, learning one plan and trying to make it fit against every possible response of opponent, and don't think this is a good idea.

 Yusupov mostly plays it when opponents play an early e6. Kovaceivic particularly likes it against the Benoni.

[By the way, for an interesting new idea against the Benoni, go to http://www.zukertort.com/Zukertort-Excerpts.html and click the Benoni link.]

 The rule of thumb with the Zukertort is that the only real problem comes when an opponent throws dust in your eyes after you have already played 3.e3. If you have not yet played 3.e3, then you are fine becuase you are not forced to play the Zukertort. As you say, playing the Zuke against a KID is a pain.

That is why the "weird Chigorin" [1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nc6 !?] is a bigger issue than simply [1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6], since White can do any number of things then.

Against the Pirc, KID, Modern, and "normal" Gruenfeld, Zuke players tend to develop separate responses...in each case you have an opening that:

i) has not forced you to play e3

ii) Is very unlikely to tranpose to a normal QGA/GQD/Q-pawn game formation.

Hello Zukertort,

Yes, I think you can get a decent Rep that way.

          Somebody earlier in the thread asked what was the difference between opening and system. I should have used the quote thing, to make clear was not answering poster immediately before me.

 I have to disagree with you there, Shindocun.  The idea that you can be sorta lazy with your study of the Colle and get by is exactly what can get someone ripped to shreds.

Move order is important with the Colle, it's just that the subtleties tend to come around moves 7-9. I'm personally not a fan of Dogs of War because most of the games seemed to be examples where White didn't really know what he was doing [just my opinoin].

 For example, consider a pretty standard move order in the C-Z:

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Nc6 6.0-0 Bd6 7.Bb2

 Now, from here standard plays by Black include castling, playing Qc7 [or Qe7], exchanging on d4 or playing Nb4. However, the order in which he does these moves is of crucial import.

 On the White side, the order in which White plays a3, Nbd2, and Ne5 is like-wise crucial to knowing how to play this opening well. [And, once again, these come around moves 7-9.]

In other Zukertort news, Zuke-Em is now on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1888710357/

And I've created a zukertort player forum for C-Z players to build a community in:

 www.zuke-dukes.com/forum

-David

normajeanyates, likesforests, zukertort, and others, thanks for beefing up this thread with the games and latest discussions.  As well as educating me, it makes a nice reference for others interested in the colle-zuk.

I have a confession to make regarding working through "art of attack," Vukovic.  At page 15 it seemed profound.  By page 17 it's so profound that it's over my head .  So emphasis for me is on simpler texts and tactics trainer for now.

Anyone want to recommend a simpler book on attack?

It isn't really a book on the attack per se...but two ideas come up:

 i) Improve your chess NOW by Tinman [I think?] is a thoroughly excellent [and accessible, I think] text.

ii) If you are aware of what is called the "Soviet method" of training, I would recommend doing that with "Fire on Board" [an annotated set of things by Shirov.

 If you do not know what I mean by the "Soviet Method," it is the method suggested by Silman in "How to Reassess your Chess," which is on my short list of recommendations for people in general as they desire to improve themselves. If you have read Silmna's book, you'll know what I mean...if you haven't, I recommend you do so!

Here is some training material recently released on it.

 http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4745

I just took a look at the review of that DVD and saw something immediately that looked off: [Below is a quote from the review site]

One particularly important feature of the whole Colle System is that it’s not equally effective against all of Black’s defences. Indeed, some Black set-ups leave it looking rather toothless. I have seen some Colle books that like to gloss over this important fact, providing unsuspecting players of the White pieces with little warning of future disappointments. GM Davies does not fall into the trap of creating the impression that all is rosy in the garden no matter how Black proceeds and freely admits that White must be flexible and not follow the Colle System too blindly.

For example, 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 e3 Bg4 is an irritating line to face, especially if one believes the standard Colle moves can trotted out regardless.

 After the lazy 4 Bd3 Nbd7 Black is already limbering for …e7-e5, completely solving his opening problems. As pointed out on the DVD, White must play 4 c4 to prevent Black from obtaining a very easy game. White can then aim for an early Qb3 to apply pressure on the Queenside in general and the b7 pawn in particular (although even here White needs to know something about the Queen’s Gambit Accepted as Black can transpose to it with 4...dxc4).

 It IS true that there are setups that one cannot blindly follow the Colle against...but it is most definitely not true that White needs [or even should] play 4.c4 here. That is the sort of play that people used to think, 8 years ago, was good. But the better option of 4.h3! has been known for over 5 years at least. Palliser has it in his book. I have it in mine. Jeremy Silman was the first person I saw to actually publish it, and other repertoire books [from the Black Side] treat it as well...so this is a really odd thing to see.