Considering the Budapest

 @ bb_gum

 Thank you for your idea to explain the position but its not always so simple, especially on OTB conditions to understand how and why.

 @ LuftWaffles

 If i was feeling empowered from my engine, i will probably have write that the position is fairly equal but i didn't. You can go back and you will see that i am asking everyone here, not only the titled players: I write to Dolphin- White has the bishop pair, is that enough? White has a slight initiative on the Queen side is that enough? and no one answers! 

 And if Victor Korchnoi didn't find a way to win in this position then how am i supposed to do? or my 1800 opponent?

It's not a specific rating, but a skill level. In the 1950s (and perhaps even before), players began to realize that even a single badly placed piece in the opening was enough to have an inferior game. There are certain positions where even a beginner could see the long-term advantage of having a superior piece, such as Bishop endings with pawns all on the same colored squares as that B (the classic bad bishop).

Most opening books give evaluations based on the relative placement of the pieces. So in a very real sense, the level at which piece placement matters in the evaluation of an opening is about the level at which opening books begin to become useful.

It's no coincidence that Rumo, Pfren, ponz, and myself all agree that White has several paths to a comfortable edge in the Budapest, but the Budapest does not quite lead to a lost position. There are many interesting and nefarious traps in the Budapest, but White has well known paths that avoid some of the worst of these.

Of course, even top GMs, such as Gelfand, occasionally get mixed up, miss a key move, and get into trouble. But is that really a reason to take up the opening as a repertoire choice? There are many good repertoire choices for Black against 1.d4 without giving White such a large advantage in the opening. The Budapest may be a useful occasional weapon especially in fast time controls, but not as a main weapon. 

@ Luftwaffles

You see, what you want to see! My answer to FM Rumo was against his post : " That is a strange question. If white can take back with the rook, he simply has a winning position: Healthy extra pawn and bishop pair. Besides, the rook is perfectly well placed to support the pawn break c4-c5. The pawn break that will not be possible anymore after the Bxc3 bxc3 exchange, as Phren already pointed out."

I am not a strange Mr.Rumo to find my question strange! If you or any titled player find a position more well known to you then explain why or just don't speak. When I asking why white is better it's at least an irony to pretend that I am an idiot because I can't understand how the bishop pair become more active here or how white takes advantage with c pawn brake. I am sure that when Mr.Rumo answered my question he didn't even realize what the position is and so Mr. Pfren, because I mentioned a less pawn than it is. I was thinking an inferior variation but no one said; Hey! What kind of extra pawn you are talking about?!

When I posted the variation, then suddenly i become more serious than strange!

Bishop  You keep talking as if White has only 1 advantage in these positions. Usually he has at least 2 advantages. Each advantage in itself might be small, say 1/3 of a pawn but when you add them up then it is 1/3 plus 1/3 or 2/3 of a pawn advantage which is a very nice advantage. Not probably, a forced win, but intead of a forced win--very good winning chances.

If you do not know why two bishops are generally better than bishop and knight then go online or read a  book which explains this.

@Bishop_g5 The Budapest Defense is at least somewhat respectable at class level and as such it doesn't have a straight refutation. There are lines that will give white an advantage (namely the Bf4+Nc3 line which Korchnoi employed in the above game) but obviously you are not going to win with white all the time in it. If you were, then nobody would play 2...e5.

I think the important point here is that if you're complaining about the position that Korchnoi got in the game you posted, like it's somehow not good enough for white, then I don't understand how you're not complaining about pretty much every major opening against 1. d4 (Nimzo, Slav, QGD, Grunfeld). The advantages that white gets in those lines are arguably harder to handle or smaller than the edge white gets in this line. Indeed, after 7. Rc1, it is almost a game of two results already at a high level, and a black victory is not typically one of those results.

Its hard to not get a worse position out of the opening when white doesnt mess up. Dont wanna keep you from playing it but its hard at higher levels.

@ Ponz 111

I understand the power of the bishop pair in a open position where they dominate the diagonals but in this position I don't see the clear advantage if some pawns don't removed from the picture. If for an experienced player this is something easy to do with out misplace something, then it's not for me. Perhaps you underestimate something that better players from you also didn't find solution.

@ dpnorman

No I am not complaining for whites position, I am trying to figure how favorable is for white to play this one 7. Rc1 choice instead of 7.Qd5 because the preferences from players tend to Qd5. The Rc1 is fourth choice among expert-titled players when all say that this variation clearly favors white! It sounds weird? or I am weird?

bishop pair is really strong in this position. And Rc1 seems like the most logical move.

Yeah. 7.e3 is probably an improvement over that line, Inferno. Avrukh prefers it in his repertoire book. 

There are other nasty surprises for White in the Budapest too. There are quite a few N sacs on f2/e3 for White to guard against too.

not saying that its winning but i wouldnt go for a position with black which gives my opponent a free advantage.

If you actually did play the White side of the Budapest against an engine you'd see just how much tangible counterplay Black has, and you'd be amazed at how quickly your position falls apart. 

I set up Chessmaster to play the Black side of the Budapest against me whenever all the people saying it sucks get to me and I feel like switching openings. After those games I always come away with a new respect for the Budapest, and new ideas to use in my OTB games.

The Budapest is an easy opening to learn and it's easy to get your pieces out in it. Highly recommended.

In the 5 months i've played the Budapest, i realized if you really want to get to at least National Master, you have to play more solid and respected openings becuase when you start to come across players over 2000, if they know what their doing, they can come out of the opening with an advantage. I still play it now in Blitz because its actually really fun to play but i had to switch to a more popular alternative, the Leningrad Dutch which grants Black more piece activity most times. so in conclusion i would not play the Budapest Gambit as your main unless you want to stay a class B player your whole life. Thats just my advice

Budapest is a city!

pfren написал:

Joker-Jamal wrote:

Budapest is a city!

Actually it's two cities.

What?!

Really?!

Paraphrasing here:

"White is very clearly better here, but it's no big deal" - Garry Kasparov

If you want to play an opening that is known to be "inferior" but you know (or are learning) that opening ... it is no big deal.

Now I know we have masters here that play perfect chess and will be playing the candidates tourney next year. And I know they'll tell you all about hope chess, and how they'll never lose against your garbage opening

... but ...

We don't have those masters here, and every player on this thread would lose to Jobava if he played the Budapest against them. Ever person on this thread would lose to Karjakin if he gave them knights odds. They can go on and on about their huge advantages all they want. But it won't mean crap.

Play any opening, if they other side get a good advantage "it's no big deal" and your victory feels that much better.

Grandmasters usually dont play the Budepest because the main line gives White the two Bishops and an extra pawn, but I usually play:

Correct me if something's wrong.

Ok ok ok, the knight odds is insomnia speaking.

But the idea behind the post is still true. If you know an opening, have spent many hours analyzing it, and it's not something your opponent plays against a lot, you can get something.

If you want call that hope chess, well those hopefulls are in good company with a couple would champions and immortal attacking plays.

Fiveofswords wrote:

CJ_P wrote:

Paraphrasing here:

"White is very clearly better here, but it's no big deal" - Garry Kasparov

If you want to play an opening that is known to be "inferior" but you know (or are learning) that opening ... it is no big deal.

Now I know we have masters here that play perfect chess and will be playing the candidates tourney next year. And I know they'll tell you all about hope chess, and how they'll never lose against your garbage opening

... but ...

We don't have those masters here, and every player on this thread would lose to Jobava if he played the Budapest against them. Ever person on this thread would lose to Karjakin if he gave them knights odds. They can go on and on about their huge advantages all they want. But it won't mean crap.

Play any opening, if they other side get a good advantage "it's no big deal" and your victory feels that much better.

uh...i dont think any master would lose to karjakin with knight odds. theres other reasons an advantage might not be a big deal...not because you are kasparov and you just win by sheer awesomeness (lol)...but say if a position is very chaotic and unstable then even if we say one side has an advatage it is almost irrelevant.

Yes, if I'm playing Jobava, I'm likely to lose. But if he chooses a main line of the Budapest, I'm going to have a good position out of the opening before he beats me. 

I guess the moral of that story is: don't play Jobava. 

Jobava must rarely play the budapest as its not even listed as one of his most played openings against 1 d4 .  The KID and Benoni  are listed ... I doubt there is any GM that relies on the Budapest as their #1 response to 1 d4 .