Delayed Alapin as Black

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Avatar of BourbonCoffee
Any recommendations for black in the structures emerging from the Delayed Alapin? I'm struggling with it. 

Avatar of followthebuzzard

I think your question might be hard to answer in that White has not indicated his method of development for his pieces yet (by which I mean the likes of 4.Bd3 Kopec variation, 4.Be2 Basman variation and other ideas).

I have played the Basman system for about the last 30 odd years both at Club level (1800 ELO) and Correspondence (2105 ELO) and I have seen many different structures over the years and by far, 3 are the most common.

The 1st can be ignored 4.Be2 Nxe4 5.Qa4+ for obvious reasons but is still common

The 2nd and 3rd involve similar ideas. The base idea being first the plan of g6, Bg7 and 0-0 and then it is a matter of whether Black plays e7-e5 or not. Of these two plans, the structure I have found the hardest to play against as White is if Black does play e5 sooner rather than later.

As Basman himself points out in the audio book on this line that the resulting Black pawn structures are very Ruy Lopez like.

Avatar of staples13

The Alapin wins by force. I suggest you abandon the Sicilian 

Avatar of Yigor
NonPassant wrote:
Any recommendations for black in the structures emerging from the Delayed Alapin? I'm struggling with it. 

 

With what are U struggling ?!? So far, white hasn't created any threats at all. peshka.png

Avatar of Laskersnephew
3...Nf6 and black has no particular problems
Avatar of kindaspongey
kindaspongey wrote (~7 days ago):
Staples13 wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
Staples13 wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
staples13 wrote:

… the Delayed Alapin ... usually provokes the move 2.d6 which is pretty useless in most Alapin lines, ...

What would be your suggestion for how to react to 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 c3 Nf6 ?

… probably Qc2 ...

And after 4...Qc7 ?

Probably Bb5+

After 5...Nbd7, what is probable?

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/a-bust-to-the-sicilian-defense?quote_id=43948480&page=80

 

Avatar of poucin

This line is not easy at all to play as black.

Those telling there is no threat (not really, white threatens to erect a strong centre with d4), 3...Nf6 and black has no particular problems, should go a bit further...

Of course 3...Nf6 is the move (preventing d4), but then? Just the beginning of a many lines...

Followbuzzard gave a simple recipe which is indeedrather  easy to play (there are other problems though).

Avatar of pfren

White's options in that line besides Kopec's 4.Bd3, and Basman's 4.Be2 include the more sophisticated line 4.h3, which I have played a few times as white. This system (4.h3) was presented in an older Quality Chess openings' manual.

4.Qc2 and 4.d3 are not so clever moves, as the e4 pawn cannot be touched yet. 

None of the three is that easy to meet, I agree with IM Poucin.

Avatar of ThrillerFan

Which Open Sicilian do you play?

Which line do you play against the Alapin (2.c3)?

 

Reason I ask is if you play the Najdorf or Dragon, you are out of luck as 2...d6 3.c3 is a whole different ball of wax with theory to learn.

If you play the Classical, you can switch moves 2 and 5 (2...d6 and 5...Nc6 become 2...Nc6 and 5...d6) and against 3.c3, play 3...d5 and transpose to the 2...d5 line.

If you play the Schevningen, you have even more flexibility.  If you like the 2...d5 line of the alapin, play 2...Nc6, head for a taimanov, and you can almost always directly transpose to a scheveningen.  If you normally play 2...Nf6 against 2.c3, then play 2...e6 (and 5...d6 if open sicilian).  Now 3.c3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.d4 cxd4 is a direct transposition to the 2.c3 Sicilian with 2...Nf6 and 4...e6 (as opposed to 4...Nc6).

 

Hope this helps.

Avatar of talapia
followthebuzzard wrote:

I think your question might be hard to answer in that White has not indicated his method of development for his pieces yet (by which I mean the likes of 4.Bd3 Kopec variation, 4.Be2 Basman variation and other ideas).

I have played the Basman system for about the last 30 odd years both at Club level (1800 ELO) and Correspondence (2105 ELO) and I have seen many different structures over the years and by far, 3 are the most common.

The 1st can be ignored 4.Be2 Nxe4 5.Qa4+ for obvious reasons but is still common

The 2nd and 3rd involve similar ideas. The base idea being first the plan of g6, Bg7 and 0-0 and then it is a matter of whether Black plays e7-e5 or not. Of these two plans, the structure I have found the hardest to play against as White is if Black does play e5 sooner rather than later.

As Basman himself points out in the audio book on this line that the resulting Black pawn structures are very Ruy Lopez like.

 

I never regret playing the Kopec line. The man made a great video where he explained all his thinking. At first I was skeptical. But it works.

Avatar of Laskersnephew
pfren wrote:

White's options in that line besides Kopec's 4.Bd3, and Basman's 4.Be2 include the more sophisticated line 4.h3, which I have played a few times as white. This system (4.h3) was presented in an older Quality Chess openings' manual.

4.Qc2 and 4.d3 are not so clever moves, as the e4 pawn cannot be touched yet. 

None of the three is that easy to meet, I agree with IM Poucin.

White is making sensible moves, so Black will have  problems to solve in the opening. But isn't that just as true about every reasonable White opening.? It's the idea that the Alapin, delayed or otherwise, is a "Sicilian Killer," that seems ridiculous. And just for the record, the Alapin is my usual way of meeting the Sicilian. I believe in it, but I'm not crazy

Avatar of e5IsForRealMan

The problem about the delayed Alapin is that you allow d6 wich makes at an opening that differs a lot from an Alapin wich is what I usually play.

I have a line in the delayed Alapin that has given me good results thoug:

 

Avatar of staples13

You are very rude.

Avatar of followthebuzzard
pfren wrote:

White's options in that line besides Kopec's 4.Bd3, and Basman's 4.Be2 include the more sophisticated line 4.h3, which I have played a few times as white. This system (4.h3) was presented in an older Quality Chess openings' manual.

4.Qc2 and 4.d3 are not so clever moves, as the e4 pawn cannot be touched yet. 

None of the three is that easy to meet, I agree with IM Poucin.

Greetings,

As one of the ordinary chess playing mortals I do have to ask just how is 4.h3 any more sophisticated?

I mean after all, at the very least with either 4.Bd3 or 4.Be2 the need for White to play d2 to d3 at some point is not entirely forced where as if Black blocks a4 to e8 with either Bishop or knight to d7 then d3 either becomes an immediate requirement or you have to go to the likes of Qc2 or Qe2. 

 

Avatar of Laskersnephew
RupertRhine wrote:
staples13 wrote:

The Alapin wins by force. I suggest you abandon the Sicilian 

Do you Ever just shut the F up?!

Constantly barking "The Alapin wins by force" is pretty rude and annoying too. You know better! So why not just stop

Avatar of pfren
followthebuzzard έγραψε:

Greetings,

As one of the ordinary chess playing mortals I do have to ask just how is 4.h3 any more sophisticated?

I mean after all, at the very least with either 4.Bd3 or 4.Be2 the need for White to play d2 to d3 at some point is not entirely forced where as if Black blocks a4 to e8 with either Bishop or knight to d7 then d3 either becomes an immediate requirement or you have to go to the likes of Qc2 or Qe2. 

 

 

4.h3 stops Bg4, which would put considerable indirect pressure towards a white pawn at d4. Most of the times white will follow with Bf1-d3, but it boils down to Black's reaction. Of course not everything is easy for white as well- an early h2-h3 may initiate some aggression by Black, say 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.c3 Nf6 4.h3 Nc6 5.Bd3 e5 and now 6.Bc2 is preferrable to 6.0-0, which allows 6...g5!

GM Christian Bauer devotes to 4.h3 no less than 50 pages in "Experts vs the Anti-Sicilian"- you wouldn't expect a summary of all that stuff in a single reply, would you?

Avatar of staples13
Optimissed wrote:
staples13 wrote:

You are very rude

You're getting very tedious. The novelty has worn off long since. You're entertaining no longer and you were never correct. The Alapin is a good and solid way for white to play and that's all.

Optimissed supporting the bully what a surprise 

Avatar of followthebuzzard
pfren wrote:

4.h3 stops Bg4, which would put considerable indirect pressure towards a white pawn at d4. Most of the times white will follow with Bf1-d3, but it boils down to Black's reaction. Of course not everything is easy for white as well- an early h2-h3 may initiate some aggression by Black, say 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.c3 Nf6 4.h3 Nc6 5.Bd3 e5 and now 6.Bc2 is preferrable to 6.0-0, which allows 6...g5!

GM Christian Bauer devotes to 4.h3 no less than 50 pages in "Experts vs the Anti-Sicilian"- you wouldn't expect a summary of all that stuff in a single reply, would you?

No. Sighting sourcing material is sufficient.

Thank you

Avatar of e5IsForRealMan
staples13 escribió:
Optimissed wrote:
staples13 wrote:

You are very rude

You're getting very tedious. The novelty has worn off long since. You're entertaining no longer and you were never correct. The Alapin is a good and solid way for white to play and that's all.

Optimissed supporting the bully what a surprise 

You are so delusional

Avatar of staples13

More bullying from Optimissed sad.png