Do experts and masters still play Philidors Defense?

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bong711

Philidors defense is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6. It is popular among beginners, intermediates and patzers. I usually crush this defense. I believe it's really a sound opening but reluctant to play it myself because of it's popular use by the above. Thoughts? 

Yigor

Explorer shows 55 master games in 2017. explorer.pngpeshka.png

bong711

Only 55? Not so good for Philidor.

bong711

I invite strong players to post their Philidor wins as black. Philidor is a chess legend. He wouldn't start this defense if it's unsound.

bong711

Great wins of Philidor defense. Philidor would be proud of Jobava.

Yigor
chiefjello wrote:

He must be Russian, and he is playing some guy from Italy. Italians are terrible at chess.

 

Russian hackers hacked Magnus Carlsen too ?!? grin.pngblitz.pngpeshka.png

Yigor

Here are links to Philidor master's wins in 2017:

 

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14065433

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14096237

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14087537

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14109073

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14075307

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14103991

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14087609

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14079711

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14088695

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14087673

https://www.chess.com/games/view/14068477

Firethorn15

One issue with the Philidor (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5) is that White has many options as to how to play against it. He can go for the queenless middlegame with 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8+, after which Black has very little chance to play for a win if White knows what he's doing, and will have to defend for most of the game, which isn't to most players' taste. Alternatively, White can play 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 with a pleasant position with more space, again with little risk if he knows what he is doing. A more aggressive option is the set-up with Nge2 and f3, which is again comfortable for White. Finally, he can go for the gung-ho approach with 5.g4!?, which is at least much easier to play with White than with Black and is probably at least equal for White objectively. Although the first of these options can be taken out by the 3...Nbd7 move order, 4.g4 in that line is rather unpleasant to face and White scores very highly. So White has a wide range of lines to suit his taste, all of which lead to slightly difficult, cramped positions for Black - this is probably the reason for the Philidor's unpopularity at high levels. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't play it; it is, after all, very solid, and there is nothing wrong with it. It's just easier to play from the White side.

bong711

A popular variation played by weak players. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4?? Have any master drawn or won this position as black? 

Yigor
bong711 wrote:

A popular variation played by weak players. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4?? Have any master drawn or won this position as black? 

 

Sure. peshka.png Historical games (Blackburne won thrice, in particular vs Bird, and Mieses won vs Paulsen):

https://www.chess.com/games/view/6455

https://www.chess.com/games/view/6487

https://www.chess.com/games/view/5106

https://www.chess.com/games/view/4395

 

Wins by black in modern games:

https://www.chess.com/games/view/1143274

https://www.chess.com/games/view/1062919

https://www.chess.com/games/view/564717

 

N.B. It often leads to the Alapin-Blackburne gambit.

bong711

Thanks Yigor for those convincing facts. With some study, I will play the Philidor too.

drmrboss

Stockfish doesnt like Phildor! Be careful!

bong711

It's alright. I'll practice Philidor against sub 1500 players then move up.

bong711

It's boring to repeat same openings again and again. I played mostly Sicilians and rarely played e5 against e4. For a change, the Philidor is worth playing as it's not unsound, only unpopular among strong players.

Chessputz

I used to play it in my "early years" -- had some success with it.  

I never got laughed at for playing it, but I very often got questionable shrugs from my opponents.

I think the overarching sentiment -- at least at the intermediate levels I play at -- is that the Philidor simply surrenders the initiative to White albeit, with a low-risk cost to Black.  It is a statement of Black of "I am playing conservatively and just waiting for you to blunder."

 

This mentality -- obviously -- doesn't appeal to many players.

kindaspongey

The Black Lion, 2nd Edition by Jerry van Rekom & Leo Jansen (2009)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627122350/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen123.pdf
A Cunning Chess Opening for Black by Sergey Kasparov (2015)
http://www.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Cunning-Chess-Opening-for-Black-A-76p3899.htm

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9008.pdf

yureesystem

Philidor is very sound and playable.

TwoMove

yes

prusswan

Playable but Black has better options at top-level

AlexanderMagnos

The black lion is a modernized somewhat improved Philidor, been championed by Simon Williams amongst others. Move order is changed from a traditional Philidor to

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7