E4, D4 or C4?

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On an unrelated note 1.c4 is never recommended for beginners because the lines in 1.c4 can transpose.

Some lines in 1.c4 are actually 1.d4 lines or even 1.e4 lines. They usually recommend playing 1.e4 or 1.d4 before you play 1.c4 or 1.Nf3

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hey stinky creamp*e here, tis is a tricky question.

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E4

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Compadre_J wrote:
On an unrelated note 1.c4 is never recommended for beginners because the lines in 1.c4 can transpose.

Some lines in 1.c4 are actually 1.d4 lines or even 1.e4 lines. They usually recommend playing 1.e4 or 1.d4 before you play 1.c4 or 1.Nf3

I wholeheartedly disagree. C4 is exactly what beginners (and serious players too for that matter) need. its flexible and suits almost all play styles.
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GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
Compadre_J wrote:
On an unrelated note 1.c4 is never recommended for beginners because the lines in 1.c4 can transpose.
Some lines in 1.c4 are actually 1.d4 lines or even 1.e4 lines. They usually recommend playing 1.e4 or 1.d4 before you play 1.c4 or 1.Nf3
I wholeheartedly disagree. C4 is exactly what beginners (and serious players too for that matter) need. its flexible and suits almost all play styles.

It's mighty easy to go from a symmetrical English to a Sicilian Maroczy Bind, where possibly neither player knows his way around.

1. c4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Nxd4 e6 5. e4

Avatar of Optimissed
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
Compadre_J wrote:
On an unrelated note 1.c4 is never recommended for beginners because the lines in 1.c4 can transpose.
Some lines in 1.c4 are actually 1.d4 lines or even 1.e4 lines. They usually recommend playing 1.e4 or 1.d4 before you play 1.c4 or 1.Nf3
I wholeheartedly disagree. C4 is exactly what beginners (and serious players too for that matter) need. its flexible and suits almost all play styles.

Probably diagree with you there but we've had a good run and are largely in agreement.

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Well we can’t agree on everything.
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I play c4 because I have a trap that almost 90% players fall for

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Can you send the move order please?
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Optimissed wrote:

The role of opening theory for beginners, in the understanding of both piece development and tactical manoeuvring, shouldn't be underestimated. I also think it makes sense for a beginner to learn chess by playing 1. d4 at the very beginning although beginners need to get experience with 1. e4 early on.

Not so soon that they don't understand development, which is easier to learn in the first instance after 1. d4 because you immediately confront the problem of the difficult-to-develop bishop and also because 1. e4 ... e5 games are far too tactical to confront an absolute beginner with and yet if you demonstrate passive 1. e4 e5 positions, they get completely the wrong idea about how chess is played.

Hence starting with 1. e4 e5 openings seems wrong. It leads to weak players never breaking away from the four knights game or the Italian Quiet Game.

I can see how a player starting out might gravitate to the Four Knights or Quiet Game if they're trying to learn the game entirely on their own, although to be honest, if beginners are anything like when I was young, they're probably spending too much time trying to learn too many openings rather than not enough. 
I think beginners should definitely start with gambits, like the King's Gambit, Scotch Gambit, and Evan's Gambit, as such openings require the beginner to focus upon development and tactics, with the King's Gambit in particular forcing them to always be aware of what nastiness your opponent can do to you in return! I guess I sort of recommend trial by fire happy.png.

Then, as their tactical awareness sharpens, and it doesn't have to be master level sharp, say around 1000 Elo, and they've picked up a few lines from the above that they can bring out if in a particularly violent mood, they should start to consider some more solid openings in order to work on positional ideas. Tactics arise from good positions, but if you can't see the opportunity then the idea of the position is for naught. 
Of course, at your level, you're well beyond the point where you need to learn to spot basic tactics, like recognizing "Hey, I can leave that pawn undefended because if they take it with their rook, I can move my bishop to capture the rook because that reveals a check on their King that the rook can't do anything about." Most beginners aren't even close to spotting discovered attacks, let alone how the threat of one enables them to leave something en pris. They still need to recognize that they don't have to move a piece just because it is attacked but they can look to see if they can attack a piece of greater value, particularly the opponent's King, pin the attacking piece, or use another piece to capture it, or even consider sacrificing it if there's a big attack in return.
But probably the best thing a beginner can do is find at least one buddy that they can play real, OTB chess with. There's nothing like having a friend sitting across the board from you to really spark the desire to improve.

Avatar of Compadre_J
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
Compadre_J wrote:
On an unrelated note 1.c4 is never recommended for beginners because the lines in 1.c4 can transpose.
Some lines in 1.c4 are actually 1.d4 lines or even 1.e4 lines. They usually recommend playing 1.e4 or 1.d4 before you play 1.c4 or 1.Nf3
I wholeheartedly disagree. C4 is exactly what beginners (and serious players too for that matter) need. its flexible and suits almost all play styles.

Flexibility doesn’t help a Beginner.

It hurts a Beginner.
Beginners need lines which are Rigid.

Flexibility helps Strong players.

This is what I was taught.

Can you give an example of how a Flexible line helps a Beginner?
I am willing to learn a different perspective.

I just can’t see how what your saying is right.

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Certainly, say our fantasy beginner does not know his play style and wants to learn a opening a flexible opening is good so that once our beginner develops a play style he does not need to learn a different opening and can use that time to study endgames and middle games. Another reason a flexible opening is good is because you can adapt depending on your opponent’s play style. I have won many games playing passively at first but once realizing that my opponent is not equipped to handle a full blown assault opened the position and checkmated my opponent. But this is just my opinion.
Avatar of Compadre_J
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
Certainly, say our fantasy beginner does not know his play style and wants to learn a opening a flexible opening is good so that once our beginner develops a play style he does not need to learn a different opening and can use that time to study endgames and middle games. Another reason a flexible opening is good is because you can adapt depending on your opponent’s play style. I have won many games playing passively at first but once realizing that my opponent is not equipped to handle a full blown assault opened the position and checkmated my opponent. But this is just my opinion.

We are talking about 1.c4.

Your saying a person should play 1.c4 instead of 1.d4 or 1.e4 because it is more Flexible which is true.

1.c4 is more flexible because it allows players to transition from English lines to 1.e4 lines or 1.d4 lines.

I can see how doing those things from a Strong Players Perspective is very beneficial.

I said I don’t think it is beneficial for a Beginner, but your saying it can be. 
Thus, my question is how is it beneficial?

The Opening Knowledge an individual player would need to have would be greater in a 1.c4 line because they would have to be familiar with 1.e4 & 1.d4 lines in addition to 1.c4 lines.

Would they not?

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@ ~

#53 good points

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What are we classifying as a Beginner?
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Someone who is less than 200 on chess.com maybe?

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Oh ok sorry I thought we were calling a beginner a less than 1000. If we’re talking about less than 200 than yes they do not need to learn the English Opening. E4 or D4 would be much better in that case. Glad I fully understand your argument now. Sorry for the confusion.
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Oh I wouldn't know what others think. I think a beginner is a beginner, however! surprise

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It's midnight here and I need to drag my recalcitrant wife off to bed. after all, it's she who's working in the morning, not me! Goodnight.

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GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
What are we classifying as a Beginner?

I have the following classification’s:

- Above 2200 = Master Player of some sort (Titled Player)

- 2100 = Expert Player

- 2000 = Seasoned Advanced Player

- 1900 to 1800 = Advanced Player

- 1700 = Seasoned Intermediate Player

- 1600 to 1400 = Intermediate Player

- 1300 = Seasoned Beginner Player

- 1200 to 1000 = Beginner Player

- Below 1000 = Novice Player

———————

I like to make a distinction between a Season Players vs. Non-Season Player.

To me if Chess was a video game, A Player ranked 1300, 1700, 2000, & Titled would be different Boss Stages.

1300 is a Beginner, but like the Boss or King of Beginners.

1300 is the type of Beginner setting the tone for all other beginners. 
A Season Beginner is coming at other Beginners hot and heavy.

They are playing lines such as Fried Liver Attack or Gambit lines. 
The Season Beginner believes they are Tal doing an Attacking Master Piece.

The EGO they have is also massive.

After the game is over, they tell their other low level Beginner friend “that is how the game is win, boys”. Than they insist on going to the forums and posting their absurd game while having the ego to claim it is a work of art.

Every single time it is like that