E4, D4 or C4?

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AngusByers
Optimissed wrote:

The role of opening theory for beginners, in the understanding of both piece development and tactical manoeuvring, shouldn't be underestimated. I also think it makes sense for a beginner to learn chess by playing 1. d4 at the very beginning although beginners need to get experience with 1. e4 early on.

Not so soon that they don't understand development, which is easier to learn in the first instance after 1. d4 because you immediately confront the problem of the difficult-to-develop bishop and also because 1. e4 ... e5 games are far too tactical to confront an absolute beginner with and yet if you demonstrate passive 1. e4 e5 positions, they get completely the wrong idea about how chess is played.

Hence starting with 1. e4 e5 openings seems wrong. It leads to weak players never breaking away from the four knights game or the Italian Quiet Game.

I can see how a player starting out might gravitate to the Four Knights or Quiet Game if they're trying to learn the game entirely on their own, although to be honest, if beginners are anything like when I was young, they're probably spending too much time trying to learn too many openings rather than not enough. 
I think beginners should definitely start with gambits, like the King's Gambit, Scotch Gambit, and Evan's Gambit, as such openings require the beginner to focus upon development and tactics, with the King's Gambit in particular forcing them to always be aware of what nastiness your opponent can do to you in return! I guess I sort of recommend trial by fire happy.png.

Then, as their tactical awareness sharpens, and it doesn't have to be master level sharp, say around 1000 Elo, and they've picked up a few lines from the above that they can bring out if in a particularly violent mood, they should start to consider some more solid openings in order to work on positional ideas. Tactics arise from good positions, but if you can't see the opportunity then the idea of the position is for naught. 
Of course, at your level, you're well beyond the point where you need to learn to spot basic tactics, like recognizing "Hey, I can leave that pawn undefended because if they take it with their rook, I can move my bishop to capture the rook because that reveals a check on their King that the rook can't do anything about." Most beginners aren't even close to spotting discovered attacks, let alone how the threat of one enables them to leave something en pris. They still need to recognize that they don't have to move a piece just because it is attacked but they can look to see if they can attack a piece of greater value, particularly the opponent's King, pin the attacking piece, or use another piece to capture it, or even consider sacrificing it if there's a big attack in return.
But probably the best thing a beginner can do is find at least one buddy that they can play real, OTB chess with. There's nothing like having a friend sitting across the board from you to really spark the desire to improve.

Compadre_J
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
Compadre_J wrote:
On an unrelated note 1.c4 is never recommended for beginners because the lines in 1.c4 can transpose.
Some lines in 1.c4 are actually 1.d4 lines or even 1.e4 lines. They usually recommend playing 1.e4 or 1.d4 before you play 1.c4 or 1.Nf3
I wholeheartedly disagree. C4 is exactly what beginners (and serious players too for that matter) need. its flexible and suits almost all play styles.

Flexibility doesn’t help a Beginner.

It hurts a Beginner.
Beginners need lines which are Rigid.

Flexibility helps Strong players.

This is what I was taught.

Can you give an example of how a Flexible line helps a Beginner?
I am willing to learn a different perspective.

I just can’t see how what your saying is right.

GrandmasterJohn15
Certainly, say our fantasy beginner does not know his play style and wants to learn a opening a flexible opening is good so that once our beginner develops a play style he does not need to learn a different opening and can use that time to study endgames and middle games. Another reason a flexible opening is good is because you can adapt depending on your opponent’s play style. I have won many games playing passively at first but once realizing that my opponent is not equipped to handle a full blown assault opened the position and checkmated my opponent. But this is just my opinion.
Compadre_J
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
Certainly, say our fantasy beginner does not know his play style and wants to learn a opening a flexible opening is good so that once our beginner develops a play style he does not need to learn a different opening and can use that time to study endgames and middle games. Another reason a flexible opening is good is because you can adapt depending on your opponent’s play style. I have won many games playing passively at first but once realizing that my opponent is not equipped to handle a full blown assault opened the position and checkmated my opponent. But this is just my opinion.

We are talking about 1.c4.

Your saying a person should play 1.c4 instead of 1.d4 or 1.e4 because it is more Flexible which is true.

1.c4 is more flexible because it allows players to transition from English lines to 1.e4 lines or 1.d4 lines.

I can see how doing those things from a Strong Players Perspective is very beneficial.

I said I don’t think it is beneficial for a Beginner, but your saying it can be. 
Thus, my question is how is it beneficial?

The Opening Knowledge an individual player would need to have would be greater in a 1.c4 line because they would have to be familiar with 1.e4 & 1.d4 lines in addition to 1.c4 lines.

Would they not?

GrandmasterJohn15
What are we classifying as a Beginner?
GrandmasterJohn15
Oh ok sorry I thought we were calling a beginner a less than 1000. If we’re talking about less than 200 than yes they do not need to learn the English Opening. E4 or D4 would be much better in that case. Glad I fully understand your argument now. Sorry for the confusion.
Compadre_J
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
What are we classifying as a Beginner?

I have the following classification’s:

- Above 2200 = Master Player of some sort (Titled Player)

- 2100 = Expert Player

- 2000 = Seasoned Advanced Player

- 1900 to 1800 = Advanced Player

- 1700 = Seasoned Intermediate Player

- 1600 to 1400 = Intermediate Player

- 1300 = Seasoned Beginner Player

- 1200 to 1000 = Beginner Player

- Below 1000 = Novice Player

———————

I like to make a distinction between a Season Players vs. Non-Season Player.

To me if Chess was a video game, A Player ranked 1300, 1700, 2000, & Titled would be different Boss Stages.

1300 is a Beginner, but like the Boss or King of Beginners.

1300 is the type of Beginner setting the tone for all other beginners. 
A Season Beginner is coming at other Beginners hot and heavy.

They are playing lines such as Fried Liver Attack or Gambit lines. 
The Season Beginner believes they are Tal doing an Attacking Master Piece.

The EGO they have is also massive.

After the game is over, they tell their other low level Beginner friend “that is how the game is win, boys”. Than they insist on going to the forums and posting their absurd game while having the ego to claim it is a work of art.

Every single time it is like that

GrandmasterJohn15
That’s kinda stereotypical don’t you think?
Compadre_J
GrandmasterJohn15 wrote:
That’s kinda stereotypical don’t you think?

Not really.

I think it is an observation which I have noticed.

GrandmasterJohn15
#67 good points
DrSpudnik

Novices are best seasoned with salt and herbs and rubbed with butter.

MeercatsForMayor

e4

Compadre_J
Optimissed wrote:

Also you're wrong on another count and come to think, I've seen that list before. The person who compiled the list doesn't even understand basic English, let alone having no understanding of chess.

It doesn't take too much intelligence to determine that someone who took up playing chess yesterday is a beginner. Then when they know a little about it, they're a novice. How the **** is it even possible to be a seasoned beginner? Or for that matter, if you apply a brain cell to the problem and manage to get it the right way round, a "seasoned novice"? That's for the fairies.

The list compiled was made by me.

I didn’t copy the above list from any other person.

I do find it surprising that you say you have seen it before.

In addition, A person who took up chess yesterday wouldn’t be called a Beginner.

They would be considered Novice or a Provincial Player.

Their status would be undefined.
(To be determined by larger amount of games)

A Novice Player could potentially jump from Novice to Intermediate depending on how talented they are and how fast they pick up the game.

It is possible for a Chess player to never be called a Beginner.

A Chess Player with Natural Talent could excel past beginner ranks right into Intermediate.

The above is very common with Children more so vs. Adults.

Similar things also happen in Schools.
Some kids go to 4th grade.
Other kids are so advanced they skip 4th grade and go into 5th grade.

jmpchess12
Optimissed wrote:

You aren't a titled player if you're 2200. (Unless you count meaningless nonsense titles like candidate master or some other stuff like that.) 2300 FIDE is just a very strong club player in the UK, let alone 2200.

My definition of a titled player is a player with a title. Some titles are worth more than others, but all of them are worth more than no title.

playerafar
RussyPoo83 wrote:

Which of these is best for players in the 1200 to 1300 rating range?

Don't forget to consider 1) Nf3.
Its very solid.
If you decide to play it - you don't have to get 'bamboozled' into the so-called 'Reti' opening - which 1) Nf3 is often misguidedly called.
Its a Reti if the game continues after Nf3 with d5 and white 'Robotically' answers d5 with c4.
Which is unnecessary.
d4 on move 2 is completely playable instead. So is 2) e3. And other moves.
Is 1) Nf3 'hard to play'?
Your knight prevents e5 by black. It prepares castling. It develops a piece.
Your knight would almost always be going to f3 anyway - and soon.
The thing I like the most about 1) Nf3 is that its taking your opponent out of 90% or more of his 'book'.
Nf3 is so good - that black might do it too. Nf6.
Asking his opponent: "Okay I agree that knights are good. But now what? What do you want to do? No Reti? How about you play d4 Now ?"
I have long thought that d4 is objectively the best and most central move for white to begin a game with. But it collides with a lot of black's preparation. So does e4.
Nf3 - not as much. Not nearly.

erdalepremium93

The best e4 italian

sphSpirit
E4
GrandmasterJohn15
C4!!!
SQooz
What is the name of this one: e3e5Qh5g6Qxh8Nc6Qxg8+Bf8Qxh7Ne7Qh8b5? I want to play and learn.
SQooz
From the previous post. I do not want to learn that. Make me not want to even play anymore