Everyone should learn the Scotch

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Garudapura
MichalMalkowski wrote:

@ninjaswat.

 

Steinitz variation is usually considered dubious. It however strikes at the very fundaments of white's idea, and it suprising how many scotch players are completally unprepared for it. 

I consider it makes scotch game unpractical at low level because:

- it is very forcefull - I've easily managed to learn a lot by heart. Like in no other opening. Black is likely to grossly outprepare white.

- pretty much anything but the main line is better for black. Sometimes slightly, sometimes crushingly. 

- the main line is extremally counterintuitive. No chance to find it OTB. You have be prepered.

- the main line is about sacrificing a pawn and going for an long term initiative. Good luck at  beginner level. At high level most players consider the initiative way too strong, and the defence way too difficult and risky. However, as far as i know there is no defininite refutation, and black's position has been proven many time to be suprisingly resilent.

Eksamples from my game. The lines go from memory, as said i remember a lot in the line.

Most games look like that, when the scotchmen is clueless:

 
 

The point is that with 4...Qh4 black not only immediatelly attacks the e4 pawn, but also starts building up a speedy attack on white king. There is no comfortable solution to both problems. One of my games went:


another went:

 

 

It is arleady a long post, so i will show more later.

I don't recommend playing dubious lines even if it works for you, we now know the Steinitz is just bad after 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Ndb5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Kd8 (forced) and white's going to win easily from that position.

Even if it works for you, I always recommend trying to play the most objective chess you can, because once you progress (and everyone hopes they do) you'll find out that those dubious openings don't work anymore and you'll have to start from scratch.

If you play correct openings, you're already saving up experience from the very beginning and you'll improve more efficiently. Plus as a bonus, isn't it nice to see a high accuracy on your game review? lol

mrfreezyiceboy
Garudapura wrote:
MichalMalkowski wrote:

@ninjaswat.

 

Steinitz variation is usually considered dubious. It however strikes at the very fundaments of white's idea, and it suprising how many scotch players are completally unprepared for it. 

I consider it makes scotch game unpractical at low level because:

- it is very forcefull - I've easily managed to learn a lot by heart. Like in no other opening. Black is likely to grossly outprepare white.

- pretty much anything but the main line is better for black. Sometimes slightly, sometimes crushingly. 

- the main line is extremally counterintuitive. No chance to find it OTB. You have be prepered.

- the main line is about sacrificing a pawn and going for an long term initiative. Good luck at  beginner level. At high level most players consider the initiative way too strong, and the defence way too difficult and risky. However, as far as i know there is no defininite refutation, and black's position has been proven many time to be suprisingly resilent.

Eksamples from my game. The lines go from memory, as said i remember a lot in the line.

Most games look like that, when the scotchmen is clueless:

 
 

The point is that with 4...Qh4 black not only immediatelly attacks the e4 pawn, but also starts building up a speedy attack on white king. There is no comfortable solution to both problems. One of my games went:


another went:

 

 

It is arleady a long post, so i will show more later.

I don't recommend playing dubious lines even if it works for you, we now know the Steinitz is just bad after 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Ndb5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Kd8 (forced) and white's going to win easily from that position.

Even if it works for you, I always recommend trying to play the most objective chess you can, because once you progress (and everyone hopes they do) you'll find out that those dubious openings don't work anymore and you'll have to start from scratch.

If you play correct openings, you're already saving up experience from the very beginning and you'll improve more efficiently. Plus as a bonus, isn't it nice to see a high accuracy on your game review? lol

yeah the main line steinitz is better for white because of the king's horrible positioning, but i partly agree with michal that it can be very tricky for lower rated players

ApolL26
DarkNightK1 skrev:
ApolL26 wrote:
DarkNightK1 skrev:

ponziani is a like a more trappy scotch u play a delayed d4 with c3

Yes it's more trappy, but also a much worse version

not really it does not lose or smth its juat a draw with best play

Just because it doesn't lose, doesn't mean that it's not worse

MichalMalkowski
Garudapura napisał:

I don't recommend playing dubious lines even if it works for you, we now know the Steinitz is just bad after 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Ndb5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Kd8 (forced) and white's going to win easily from that position.

I respectfully disagree with You. Especially with that "easily".  Knowing the first 8 moves is definetally not enough to put the variation to sleep. And "easily" by whom?

As with all dubious variations, it has it's proponents. For myself, I would not even know about it's existance, if not for an online coach who recomended it in its channel. I am refering to mr. Piotr Kaczorowski,( a NM, corespondence game master), a clear enthusiast.  He showed us a few games of his own in the line, and how black can defend. As i observe him, and his lessons, he strikes me as "grab material, and defend" kind of player. He always seems sceptical about things like initiative.

Frankly ( unless something changed) steinitz variation is just as good/bad as scandinavian defence. I once looked it up and both statistics in databese, and engine's evalutaions where about the same in mainline scandinavian and mainline steinitz scotch game. So if computers are right...      Edit: speaking of Piotr Kaczorowski, and the "everybody schould learn scotch". He was very iritated about teachers and coaches who teach scotch game as main weapon, but ignore or downplay steinitz variation. A bad methodology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ninjaswat

Ohhhhh that line. I learned it when I was like 1600 I think

darkunorthodox88
Garudapura wrote:
MichalMalkowski wrote:

@ninjaswat.

 

Steinitz variation is usually considered dubious. It however strikes at the very fundaments of white's idea, and it suprising how many scotch players are completally unprepared for it. 

I consider it makes scotch game unpractical at low level because:

- it is very forcefull - I've easily managed to learn a lot by heart. Like in no other opening. Black is likely to grossly outprepare white.

- pretty much anything but the main line is better for black. Sometimes slightly, sometimes crushingly. 

- the main line is extremally counterintuitive. No chance to find it OTB. You have be prepered.

- the main line is about sacrificing a pawn and going for an long term initiative. Good luck at  beginner level. At high level most players consider the initiative way too strong, and the defence way too difficult and risky. However, as far as i know there is no defininite refutation, and black's position has been proven many time to be suprisingly resilent.

Eksamples from my game. The lines go from memory, as said i remember a lot in the line.

Most games look like that, when the scotchmen is clueless:

 
 

The point is that with 4...Qh4 black not only immediatelly attacks the e4 pawn, but also starts building up a speedy attack on white king. There is no comfortable solution to both problems. One of my games went:


another went:

 

 

It is arleady a long post, so i will show more later.

I don't recommend playing dubious lines even if it works for you, we now know the Steinitz is just bad after 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2 Qxe4 7.Ndb5 Bxc3 8.bxc3 Kd8 (forced) and white's going to win easily from that position.

Even if it works for you, I always recommend trying to play the most objective chess you can, because once you progress (and everyone hopes they do) you'll find out that those dubious openings don't work anymore and you'll have to start from scratch.

If you play correct openings, you're already saving up experience from the very beginning and you'll improve more efficiently. Plus as a bonus, isn't it nice to see a high accuracy on your game review? lol

this final position is by no means lost for black. White is better of course, but its eval according to stockish 14 is about 0.8-1 which is about the same as some of the starting eval of other secondary defenses early on. It's very easy for white to not punish black's position appropriately and be in a worse endgame at the class level.

I woudnt exactly recommend a less experienced player to try this as black though, but only because weaker players are usually pretty terrible at tenacious defense, not because of the eval.

 

adityasaxena4

https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/daily/353072971

an all out mud fight after I gambited the e-pawn against the Scotch against my 1300 rated opponent!