`Forced openings` as black against e4 ?

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motzer2000

Hello chessers,

are there any other so called `forced openings` against white starting off with e4 than the Scandinavian ? As a low-level player I haven`t made good experiences with it ?

Any suggestions ?

ThrillerFan

If you mean openings where White has only 1 decent option, no, there isn't.

At the GM Level, one could argue all openings are that way.  For example, at the GM level, 2.d4 is really the only good move against the French or Caro-Kann (Two Knights and KIA lines are just equal), 2.Nf3 is the only real way to get an advantage against 1...e5, etc.

But at the patzer level, no, White can play almost anything and be fine.  Scandinavian is really the only response where White has only 1 real option.

Why do you want a "forced" opening anyway?  Laziness?  If you want to be any good, you have to be willing to face multiple responses and be able to play more than just one position.

Till_98

No... Nf3 is not the only move against e5 at GM level and there are also enough games with the Kingsindian attack against the french defence. So no (!), even at GM level they dont play always the Main lines because they are objectively the best. Dont know who told you that but its definetly wrong...

Trapper4

Alekhine's Defense, 1..Nf6, must be responded with 2. e5.

BMeck
Till_98 wrote:

No... Nf3 is not the only move against e5 at GM level and there are also enough games with the Kingsindian attack against the french defence. So no (!), even at GM level they dont play always the Main lines because they are objectively the best. Dont know you told you that but its definetly wrong...

Obviously it is not the only move but it is pretty much the best response.

EricSlusser

I agree with ThrillerFan that it depends on the players and how much you care about 'critical' lines. Concerning the Scandinavian, though I've always played 2.exd5, there's also 2.d4 with a Blackmar Diemar Gambit!

ThrillerFan
Till_98 wrote:

No... Nf3 is not the only move against e5 at GM level and there are also enough games with the Kingsindian attack against the french defence. So no (!), even at GM level they dont play always the Main lines because they are objectively the best. Dont know who told you that but its definetly wrong...

At the GM Level, every point matters.  Numbers below are hypothetical, don't have time right now to crunch out exact numbers.

If after 1.e4 e6, the move 2.d3 lets just say scores 52% for White, and 2.d4 scores 55% for White, then 2.d3 is a bad move at the GM Level.  He has just given up 3 points in every 100 games in which he faces the French.  At the amateur level, those 3 extra points out of every 100 mean nothing because you ain't going to win your game out of the opening.  Amateur games are full of blunders, so whether a line scores 55%, 52%, or 43%, really doesn't matter, as long as it's not a completely busted line, like say, Dominano's Defense.

Same thing goes for 1.e4 e5.  If 2.Nf3 scores 56%, 2.Nc3 scores 51%, 2.d4 scores 50%, and 2.f4 scores 46%, then yes, 2.Nf3 is the only good move, even though there are others that score .500 or better.

Trapper4
fireflashghost wrote:
Trapper4 wrote:

Alekhine's Defense, 1..Nf6, must be responded with 2. e5.

No, you can still respond 2. Nc3 and get a good game. I'm fine with responding with 2...e5 because I love playing the Vienna from both sides of the board, and I play the Petrov's Three Knights in case they try to transpose into the Four Knights.  2. d3 is also an option, although it isn't really that great against the Alekhine.....

If 2. Nc3, then d5 for black, and black has an advantage

ThrillerFan
Trapper4 wrote:
fireflashghost wrote:
Trapper4 wrote:

Alekhine's Defense, 1..Nf6, must be responded with 2. e5.

No, you can still respond 2. Nc3 and get a good game. I'm fine with responding with 2...e5 because I love playing the Vienna from both sides of the board, and I play the Petrov's Three Knights in case they try to transpose into the Four Knights.  2. d3 is also an option, although it isn't really that great against the Alekhine.....

If 2. Nc3, then d5 for black, and black has an advantage

There's a bunch of bogus.  3.e5 and Black doesn't have an advantage.

That said, the Alekhine is a horrible defense, and ever since I took up the Classical Variation, nobody has touched me.  Not even drawn!  1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3! is just far superior for White, and the reason that the Alekhine is what I deem to be one of three "main stream" openings that is, as far as I'm concerned, unsound!

And before you go crying about how "just because you don't like an opening doesn't make it unsound" bullsh*t, that just ain't the case.  I don't knock openings because I hate them (cough - Najdorf - sound as hell, but absolutely can't stand either side of it), I knock them due to consistently blowing them out of the water (over 80% score).  Black side of the Benko and Alekhine along with White side of the King's Gambit are on the "Wipe It" list (and yes, my score AGAINST each of those 3 is extremely high!)

Till_98

The Alekhine is Not unsound. The Benko is Not unsound.

Funny that a player like you call openings, played by much better players than you ( GMs), unsound.

Till_98

[COMENT DELETED]

csalami10

Don't call the alekhine defense unsound just because your or your opponents don't know how to play it. After 1. e4-Nf6 2. e5-Nd5 3. d4-d6 4. Nf3-dxe5 Nxe5-g6 white doesn't really have a much better position.

TitanCG
csalami10 wrote:

Don't call the alekhine defense unsound just because your or your opponents don't know how to play it. After 1. e4-Nf6 2. e5-Nd5 3. d4-d6 4. Nf3-dxe5 Nxe5-g6 white doesn't really have a much better position.

Well you can't call it a "great" opening because White doesn't know how to play it either. The problem with the Alekhine is that White can get a better position with no risk after 4.Nf3. It's not refuted or anything but White gets a much easier game to play. But this isn't really an issue for most players anyway so I never really saw the point in these discussions either. 

Trapper4

I personally don't like playing against the alekhine, because i always end up with overextended pawns and a meh-ish position.

motzer2000

As this is a discussion going on in between the big boys of high-level chess, I get out. Have fun :-)

kikvors
ThrillerFan schreef:
At the GM Level, every point matters.  Numbers below are hypothetical, don't have time right now to crunch out exact numbers.

If after 1.e4 e6, the move 2.d3 lets just say scores 52% for White, and 2.d4 scores 55% for White, then 2.d3 is a bad move at the GM Level.

And yet, 2.d3 is played by GMs. They must understand something that you don't.

Till_98

definetly!