While the "beasts" say the positions can be held for black in both the fried liver and lolli attacks actual tournament praxis says they cannot with white scoring over 80% in both ! Clearly we have a dilemma here, who to believe ? The beasts or tournament praxis between humans ? My main concern is otb chess and not postal nor cyber chess so for me the actual praxis of humans is what matters. Why ? Humans cannot defend as well as the "beasts" thats why. While rybka may hold, and even win, against any human with black against both the fried liver and the lolli most humans cannot it seems. I play humans otb and not rybka or fritz or shredder. The beasts have also shown many of Tal's amazing sacrifices were "incorrect" but his human opponents ( often great players themselves ) could NOT hold the positions. So, for me at least, tournament praxis trumps the "beasts" when I am considering what to play against another human.
Fried Liver
While the "beasts" say the positions can be held for black in both the fried liver and lolli attacks actual tournament praxis says they cannot with white scoring over 80% in both ! Clearly we have a dilemma here, who to believe ? The beasts or tournament praxis between humans ? My main concern is otb chess and not postal nor cyber chess so for me the actual praxis of humans is what matters. Why ? Humans cannot defend as well as the "beasts" thats why. While rybka may hold, and even win, against any human with black against both the fried liver and the lolli most humans cannot it seems. I play humans otb and not rybka or fritz or shredder. The beasts have also shown many of Tal's amazing sacrifices were "incorrect" but his human opponents ( often great players themselves ) could NOT hold the positions. So, for me at least, tournament praxis trumps the "beasts" when I am considering what to play against another human.
The point with the lolli (and perhaps to the fried liver) is that even with best play, black still comes out with some sort of disadvantage, *as well* as having to walk a tightrope to avoid getting in very big trouble. Which is why 5...Nxd5 is simply considered bad.
While the "beasts" say the positions can be held for black in both the fried liver and lolli attacks actual tournament praxis says they cannot with white scoring over 80% in both ! Clearly we have a dilemma here, who to believe ? The beasts or tournament praxis between humans ? My main concern is otb chess and not postal nor cyber chess so for me the actual praxis of humans is what matters. Why ? Humans cannot defend as well as the "beasts" thats why. While rybka may hold, and even win, against any human with black against both the fried liver and the lolli most humans cannot it seems. I play humans otb and not rybka or fritz or shredder. The beasts have also shown many of Tal's amazing sacrifices were "incorrect" but his human opponents ( often great players themselves ) could NOT hold the positions. So, for me at least, tournament praxis trumps the "beasts" when I am considering what to play against another human.
The point with the lolli (and perhaps to the fried liver) is that even with best play, black still comes out with some sort of disadvantage, *as well* as having to walk a tightrope to avoid getting in very big trouble. Which is why 5...Nxd5 is simply considered bad.
Yes, according to my database 5...Nxd5 only scores 27% for black while 5...Na5,Nd4,b5 all score over 50% for black !
You know, I'm less interested with what the database has to say rather than the actual position at hand. There is one position in the Dragon Variation, where White scores 90 percent but Black has an easy draw. I have always thought Nxd5 was perfectly fine for Black, but dangerous. White will still keep a slight advantage, but nothing special. The Fried Liver is perfect for Scholastic chess though, as they always never defend properly.
The Fried Liver Attack can be defended against. It's a bad attack since if both sides play the best moves (after starting the attack), black will win. Even with Nxd5 instead of Na5. Please don't pay attention to the database for this opening. White scores really well due to black not knowing how to defend properly after Nxd5. Here's how a game looks with white playing Fried Liver and black playing Nxd5.
benedictus, what are you talking about? The Fried Liver comes AFTER ...Nxd5, i.e. 6.Nxf7 is the Fried Liver. You can't have the Fried Liver without ...Nxd5, that's like having toast without bread.
I see. Could you please forgive my bad use of words, stop stalling, and tell me that you finally admit that I found a way to beat the Fried Liver.
Benedictus, your line is not a solution- first, white plays 9. Qe2?! and then proceeds to trade off as many pieces as possible- certainly not what I would play. Nxc2+ is not a threat, you should instead continue playing for the attack with 9. O-O or 9. d4.
Everyone who has "refuted" the fried liver attack with their "normal" lines always trades of the queens! What kind of player would trade queens with the black king in the middle.
Also I have played the fried liver attack ALOT and have scored heavly with it in the main line. The way black gets a advantage is after moves like 5. ...b5 and Traxlers Gambit (5. ..Na5), black can get a good counter attack since white has only developed 2 peices and moved the same peice twice!
Also no opening line is "broken", just play what you are comfortable with (below 2000) and you should do fine.
The fried liver is refuted if you've studied it and have a decent memory. Post whatever line you want for white and I'll give the refutation. The lolli looks to be winning for white (to me), though it's not completely clearly forced. However the lolli is the real reason why ...Na5 is superior to ...Nxd5. The reason that the fried liver scores so well in database percentages is because most of these games are either played a) before refutations were found or b) in quick games against people who haven't memorised the refutation, which is pretty difficult to find OTB.
richie, could you post the line where black escapes from the Lolli?
I always play 4. Ng5 Bc5!! with pretty good results, you'd be surprised.
Benedictus, your line is not a solution- first, white plays 9. Qe2?! and then proceeds to trade off as many pieces as possible- certainly not what I would play. Nxc2+ is not a threat, you should instead continue playing for the attack with 9. O-O or 9. d4.
I'll assume that by 9. Qe2 you mean Qe4 as that's what was in my analysis. BTW Qe4 wasn't my idea, it was the suggestion of someone who was on your side of the argument (I think it was marvellosity). I do agree with you that if white plays 9. O-O or 9. d4 it forces black to concentrate on defending himself and Nxc2+ is suicide. However, I think that 9. O-O is too passive and gives black time to build up his defense and eventually end up with an extra piece.
Against 9. d4, I would say black should play 9... c6 and now Nxc2+ is a threat. After 10. O-O exd4 11. Re1+ Kd6 and it looks as if black has once again escaped with the final advantage.
Please let me know if you think white should have played differently. Since I am supporting black in this argument, I don't want to be the one to go through the trouble of finding out how white is supposed to play.
LOL I LOOOOOOVE FRIED LIVER IT PWNZ
White scores 75% in the Fried Liver (6. Nxf7) out of 612 games in the master database, and White scores 72% in the Lolli Attack (6. d4) out of 144 games.
I know the master level is a completely different animal than most of us play at, but it seems fair to say that the lines that arise from 5...Nxd5 are strong for white among players who know what they're doing and have time to think.
I'm kind of tired of arguing about Nxd5. I remain convinced that Nxd5 is the best move and that if white goes for the Fried Liver, with best play, black will win. However, I don't think anyone here is going to change their minds about who is better in the Fried Liver Attack, so I came up with an interesting defense against it. See the move list for variations.
EDIT: In the main line, instead of 10. Be3, white has to play Bd2.
What about Qf3 instead of Bxf7
5. Qf3?? Nxg5 Black is up a piece.
7 Qf3+ and white is clearly better, also 7 0-0 is better for white .
7. Qf3+ doesn't look too bad for black after 7... Ke8. After that, both sides develop and white castles. Yes, white's position would be more comfortable to play as, but black's positional disadvantage doesn't give white much additional chance at winning. The game will probably be decided by a blunder or by whoever has the best endgame play. Also, black can later play d5 and white hardly has any advantage at all.
richie, what do you see as Black's best response to the Lolli then?