Puts the knight on a VERY powerful outpost square, and if it is taken, black can take back while also attacking whites knight.
Grand Prix Attack -- Why Nd4?
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Im bad tho so take my words with a grain of salt
Sounds about right, okay
AlekhinesRazor wrote:
CaroKannEnjoyer02 wrote:
Puts the knight on a VERY powerful outpost square, and if it is taken, black can take back while also attacking whites knight.
That looks right to me, too. A similar position arises in Petrov's Defense when Black traditionally outposts his knight at e4 (instead of d4). As much as White would like to get rid of that knight outposted in White's territory, White runs into trouble fast if White captures it with Bxe4. I ran Stockfish on that Petrov position immediately after the capture, and Stockfish already evaluated White's position as more than 2 pawns down at that point. White's score kept falling slowly until Stockfish eventually announced an upcoming forced mate by Black.
The position really isn't very similar. White has lost the bishop pair and put himself in all sorts of contortions due to how these tactical positions sometimes go. However he's not lost at all. Stockfish only has -0.75 after running a long time. In stockfish terms it's about the same advantage white gets at the start of the game.
AlekhinesRazor wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
The position really isn't very similar.
I realize that the two situations are different in some ways. The ways in which they are similar are: (1) It is unwise to capture the outposted knight that is in your territory, (2) The first thing that happens upon capture is that the recapture by pawn drives away a knight, (3) There is no convenient way to drive away the outposted knight in a hurry, though later one can advance a pawn to the 3rd rank to threaten the knight.
I also ran Stockfish for the same Petrov's Defense variation shown, except one move later into the opening. In that case White ran into fewer problems because White's queen had become more conveniently protected by then (via castling), but still Stockfish evaluated White's immediately resulting position as equivalent to having lost one pawn, and White was on the defensive for many moves after that, until the disparity gradually evened out to 0 pawns advantage to both sides, and ended in a draw.
No offence but what the hell are you talking about? The capture of a knight defended by a pawn is very common, including when the recapture drives away one of your own knights. As an example - the very first post of the thread, which is what we're supposed to be talking about. Stockfish's analysis of that says the capture of the knight is its number one choice and it's probably part of theory, or at least some high rated players have played it since it's so natural.
I made the point that in your example the bishop is being sacrificed for the knight and that is a part of why your example is different. I suggest you learn some of the very basic principles of chess before you start giving "tips" yourself and totally different positions through stockfish as if to prove them. You put a different unrelated move in and analyzed it again as if to prove the rule, that's not something that's done. There is no point in you posting random games here and making stuff up fake tips as you go along.
As a final comment - you can't "play out" what stockfish evaluates and say oh well here was the end result, that doesn't make sense either. You take stockfish's evaluation, that's the correct thing to use if you are using a computer evaluation (and computer evaluation isn't the be all and end all either). You can't say you played out the game to see what happened and it was then a draw or then a win, no.
I suspect you're probably reading an opening book that gives 5...Nd4 an "!".
I think the point of the "!" with regard to 5...Nd4 is that it's a good move, maybe even the best move in the position, despite violating opening principles and moving the same piece twice.
It's a disruptive move. White would probably like to see something like 5...a6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 and then just proceed with normal development and build a k-side attack, but 5...Nd4 muddies the waters.
Anyrate, that's my take.
AlekhinesRazor wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
The position really isn't very similar.
I realize that the two situations are different in some ways. The ways in which they are similar are: (1) It is unwise to capture the outposted knight that is in your territory, (2) The first thing that happens upon capture is that the recapture by pawn drives away a knight, (3) There is no convenient way to drive away the outposted knight in a hurry, though later one can advance a pawn to the 3rd rank to threaten the knight.
I also ran Stockfish for the same Petrov's Defense variation shown, except one move later into the opening. In that case White ran into fewer problems because White's queen had become more conveniently protected by then (via castling), but still Stockfish evaluated White's immediately resulting position as equivalent to having lost one pawn, and White was on the defensive for many moves after that, until the disparity gradually evened out to 0 pawns advantage to both sides, and ended in a draw.
Did any of you guys see that, or am I just crazy?
White wins back their lost pawn and makes black double their pawn. In my opinion, White is winning awesomely here lol
Why is Nd4! so great? I get that it is an important move, but please help me understand that it is a great move.