Greco Defence: 1.e4 e5, 2.Nf3 Qf6

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ubluk

I wonder was I overrating my position against my opponenst weak opening play? After 2. ... Qf6,3.Nc3 looks very natural. Maybe playing 4.Nd5 was too ambitious and I should have developed normally instead of trying to punish my opponent right away.
 
Now I would like to discuss Blacks opening play in general.
 
At the first view it seems that Black ignores a general principle by developing it's queen in the early stage of the game, but can White really benefit from that? For example after 1.e4 e5, 2.Nf3 Qf6, 3.Nc3 black can also try to play 3. ... Ne7, to stop Nd5. Now White can continue 4.d4 ed4, 5.Nd4 the position looks like some sort of Scotch Opening, with the difference that Blacks King's bishop is still on f8. The question is, does this really give White huge advantage, the bishop can be played to g7 anyway.
 
So maybe White should play 3.Bc4 instead of 3.Nc3. Here I think Black can continue 3. ... Nc6,-followed by d6-Bg4, that will give Black counterchances. It seems White advantage is by far not overwhelming.
 
Is it possible that 2. ... Qf6 is, maybe not a very recommendable but fully playable Defence/System?

moonnie

Qf6 is ofcourse not a good move.

1) It is not a true development move

2) It takes the natural spot of the black knight

3) It gives black trouble defending the c7 spot.

I do think Nc3 is a good move. But why play Nd5 .. the tread of Nd5 is much stronger than the execution now. White can play 4. Bc4 (development) and what else can black do than d6 (his queen blocking other normal development). After d6 white can play 5. Nd5 to much greater effect as the queen will have to retreat to d8. This gives you a hungarian defence with a tempo less for black and the hungarian defence is already an opening for people who think passive is the new cool

AKJett

3.d4 is the right move

ed4 4.Bg5 followed by Qxd4 and white already is having a nice +/=

algorab

All Greco's black players I faced played c6 to prevent Nd5.It seems Your opponent was overly generous Smile

Vyomo

Agreed with algorab, it makes it IRRITATING.

That's why when I face the Greco, I always play Bc4, 0-0 and ignore the queen.

RomyGer

As Roeczak says, 3.d4 is the best move, making Bg5 possible.  And the word "Defence" is strange, because Greco is known playing Gambits, four of them survived in the openings nomenclature.

moonnie

I do not agree with d4. In the end it will probably lead to a small advantage for white but after 3. ... exd4 4. Bg5 black can counter with Bb4 and white has to be very percise to keep his advantage. The logical 5. c3 for example fails on dxc3 6. Bxf6 c2! and black is better.

The most easy way is 3. Nc3 (development) Nc6 4. Bc4 (development) and black has trouble developing his pieces as his queen is in the way of his knight and Nd5 is always a treath giving white a clear advantage with 0 risk

@Algorab c6 might prevent Nd5 but it is not development and leaves black even more behind and after d4 it will be very hard for black to just survice the opening

bresando

Nd5 as in the game is actually perfectly good. Don't let yourself being influenced by the final result, your opponent luckily got away with a draw but it's clear that after Qd6 black's position is a mess!

By the way, it's called Greco defense not because he used to play it (he was a fan of classic and rapid  kingside development, as his games show) but because it has been played against him 3 times by his "NN" (and possibly fictional) opponents. In all the games (after 3.Bc4) black tryed the misguided counterattack 3...Qg6?.



rowstyles
Vyomo wrote:

Agreed with algorab, it makes it IRRITATING.

That's why when I face the Greco, I always play Bc4, 0-0 and ignore the queen.

I've played lots of players who play Bc5 from black and try to bring their queen side knight to d4. The plan is to trade queens and force white to recapture with the king's pawn, post-castle. This is, of course, only a possible plan if white plays Bc4. So it can become tricky.

b3nnyhaha

black has nothing here and is sorely behind in development. c6 just deprives black of the best square for his queens knight.

sionyn

Its funny how often I see Black immediately play 3...c6 after 3.Nc3. It's obvious they've experienced the unpleasantness of 4.Nd5 after say 3...Nc6, yet continue to peruse this positionally dubious line, as if ...c6 is some big improvement. 

Bubble1997

in this opening black must resign

rowstyles

This is the trap I've seen black look for in a lot of Greco Defense games. Trying to ruin the king side castle.

sionyn

A cheapo mate threat is the name of the game for many who play this line:

ubluk

Well I think that if Black after

1.e4 e5, 2.Nf3 Qf, 3.Nc3 plays Bc5 then 4.Nd5 is really crushing. The 'best' way to continue probably is then 4. ... Qd8, which simply gives white an extra pawn and superior position.

If Black plays something else as 4. ... Qd8 for example 4. ... Qd6, 5.d4! should be winning already after 5. ... ed4,  6.Bf4 Q-anywhere followed by Nc7 and game should be over. if Black after 4. ... Qd6, 5. d4 tries

5. ... Bb4 then 6.c3 followed by Nxe5 should give white a won position as well.

rowstyles

That's right. Nd5 is the best continuation. Thanks for that insight.

plutonia

2.Qf6 is really bad.

However 2. Qe7 is perfectly playable. Of course the dsB will develop to g7.

AKJett
AKJett

how is black better?

rowstyles
plutonia wrote:

2.Qf6 is really bad.

However 2. Qe7 is perfectly playable. Of course the dsB will develop to g7.

True, but this thread is mostly about The Greco Defense. Which seems pretty busted at this point.