How do I counter the Smith-Morra Gambit?

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Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
m_n0 wrote:

You've missed the point, I think. 

If the Smith-Morra were as horrible as LT says, Anand would've taken out an hour to prepare 3...dc3 against Esserman. The fact that he went for the pragmatic approach means that Black isn't obviously better, nor winning after 3...dc3, otherwise he'd have just done his homework and taken an easy win.

There are 300 openings and 5000 subopenings.

he can not prepare for everything.

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
DeirdreSkye wrote:
MetalRatel wrote:

Top players often rely on seconds to do the dirty work and often they will refer to games from relatively unknown players in correspondence chess who have spent many hours on opening analysis. You don't need to be a top player to have quality analysis, 

 

     You more or less say that any patzer with an engine can claim he understands a line more than Anand. Of course you do forget that memorising a few Stockfish moves hardly means "understand".

   Even if I agree with you (I don't) , I can't accept that a guy  can see just one line in Stockfish and that immediately qualifies him to claim that he understands Smith Morra more than Anand . In my opinion this is the definition of ignorance and stupidity(EDIT: This is for Tsvetkov).

   Do you know how much Anand has analysed Smith Morra? No you don't.

Even if he has a second(I know he had) , it's your theory that "he does his dirty work" and I don't even know what that means. Does it mean that Anand is sleeping all day and the second works 24/7? No, of course not. It means the second finds something and then both work hard on it analysing and examining the positions.

     In my opinion , and I might be wrong , you simply have failed to understand what it means to be Anand. I'm sure he has spend a lot of time in Smith Morra long before he even had the need to have a second. 

 

Even if he did, and that was 5 years ago, he would have analysed it with SF 2.

I have analysed it with SF 9.

HUGE difference, there are big chances his analysis is flawed.

So, no analysis is definitive.

Understood now, Mr. Soundmaker?

RubenHogenhout
BobbyTalparov schreef:
Leo_C wrote:
BobbyTalparov skrev:
Leo_C wrote:

An easy way to play for black

Can you explain the purpose behind pushing e6 and then pushing e5 3 moves later?

e6 restricted the white bishop on c4,the system is solid for black. Later white plays Rd1 threatening e5 so black plays ...e5 himself to deprive white of that possibility. Always keep an eye on e5 if your queen and whites rook are on the same fil,there might be a capture there

Understood.  Is there a way to play e7-e5 at once?  I understand blunting the bishop, but it seems like a waste of tempo to have to play e5 so soon after playing e6.

 

On my club most Sicilian players and I think in general play 3...Nf6 to decline the Smith Morra. But I heard very good GMs just grab the pawn and never returns it and white sees it back never again. This first play of Nc6 d6 and e6 and then after you develope your pieces with Nf6 and Be7 this is why this is not a wast of a tempo. because after you developed your pieces the attack runs out of steam and when the treath of e5 becomes actual only then play e5 with black. I heard this is a good aproach to the Smith Morra to just keep the pawn and keep it.  

 

 

 

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
BobbyTalparov wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

The important thing is I am able to find moves you are unable to.

That is what matters.

90% of opening lines that were played 100 years ago and considered as best and most popular are already not played nowadays.

Opening theory changes a lot, no one can claim the opposite.

Correct:  Stockfish is able to find moves that I'm unable to find OTB.  You rarely find anything of substantive value (Your Qe4 suggestion, for example, which was added to the database in 1995!).

 

105% of your statistics are completely made up, but going down what you are insinuating:

 

The first 10 moves of virtually every opening line have remained static for most of the last 80 years (note that roughly 50 of those years were prior to strong computers engines!).  The "changes" to opening theory have largely been with regards to extending it.  For example, in the Najdorf, there are lines that go out to 30+ moves (well into the middle game!).  The first 10 moves of a given line in the Smith-Morra, Alapin, etc., have been fairly well-known for quite some time.  If you think you are suddenly going to "throw out" many of those lines simply because of your misuse of an engine, you are more delusional than I had previously thought.

 

For example, here is the position from one of the Alpha Zero vs Stockfish games:

 

7. d5 is the 3rd most popular move (behind Nc3 and Re1) according to the Chess.com database (with Nc3 being a clear first with over 5300 games).  [Granted, Stockfish was playing without an opening book and not optimally configured - that is outside the scope of this point]  The first game I can find on record with this line is from 1957!  That is, 60 years ago (well before strong computer engines), master-level players had determined this move was a good one.  To dismiss a line because it is "old" is simply ignorant and arrogant.  To assert that your silicon friend is going to "revolutionize" opening theory (when it is designed to rely on an opening book in its optimal configuration) is laughable, at best.

Yeah, 3rd most popular, but not first, so this implies it is definitely not considered best.

While it is!

So, in a single game, opening theory has changed.

You are mixing up gravely appearance on the board and precise assessment.

Everything has appeared on the board, until move 10 or so, humankind has played at least 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 chess games so far.

Of course, you will always find an antecedent.

The point is HOW those moves are ordered and assessed, I think this is clear.

And here things change very much.

No one uses opening books to test engines nowadays, mostly 2 moves-long or so, for variety.

You are very much behind on engine testing theory.

If ALL is written down in the holy scriptures of chess databases, why then no one knows what the best first move is?

Why?

Tell me just that very simple thing, looking it up into your extremely useful opening databases:

what is the best first chess move?

Then we can discuss about second moves.

You certainly understand finding a novelty on move 30, when you are unaware what the best first move is is stupid, right?

Yigor
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

 what is the best first chess move?

 

Imho, in the current state of art, there are 3 clear candidates: 1. d4, 1. e4 and 1. Nf3. happy.png

m_n0
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
m_n0 wrote:

You've missed the point, I think. 

If the Smith-Morra were as horrible as LT says, Anand would've taken out an hour to prepare 3...dc3 against Esserman. The fact that he went for the pragmatic approach means that Black isn't obviously better, nor winning after 3...dc3, otherwise he'd have just done his homework and taken an easy win.

There are 300 openings and 5000 subopenings.

he can not prepare for everything.

I don't know why I have to explain everything to you. Marc Esserman is a well-known specialist in the Smith-Morra. Even if Anand had no idea who Esserman was, he could check a database and see that Esserman plays the Smith-Morra. The Smith-Morra was then played in the game.

300 openings and 5000 "subopenings" are irrelevant.

Yigor

 I'm not sure whether 1. c4 should be considered as a potential candidate for the first best move ?!? tongue.png

Yigor

I could easily agree with the statement (probably defended by Lyudmil but in more exaggerated terms) that Smith-Morra is not as good for white as the classical Open Sicilianpeshka.png

m_n0

I mean, ultimately both are drawn with perfect play, but yes, I agree the Open Sicilian is stronger than the Smith-Morra Gambit. Fortunately, nobody's arguing that's not the case.

MetalRatel
DeirdreSkye wrote:
MetalRatel wrote:

Top players often rely on seconds to do the dirty work and often they will refer to games from relatively unknown players in correspondence chess who have spent many hours on opening analysis. You don't need to be a top player to have quality analysis, 

 

     You more or less say that any patzer with an engine can claim he understands a line more than Anand. Of course you do forget that memorising a few Stockfish moves hardly means "understand".

   Even if I agree with you (I don't) , I can't accept that a guy  can see just one line in Stockfish and that immediately qualifies him to claim that he understands Smith Morra more than Anand . In my opinion this is the definition of ignorance and stupidity(EDIT: This is for Tsvetkov).

   Do you know how much Anand has analysed Smith Morra? No you don't.

Even if he has a second(I know he had) , it's your theory that "he does his dirty work" and I don't even know what that means. Does it mean that Anand is sleeping all day and the second works 24/7? No, of course not. It means the second finds something and then both work hard on it analysing and examining the positions.

     In my opinion , and I might be wrong , you simply have failed to understand what it means to be Anand. I'm sure he has spend a lot of time in Smith Morra long before he even had the need to have a second. 

 

 

Nope, that's not what I am saying. Another strawman.

It is quite a stretch to refer to ICCF masters as patzers with engines, and it is becoming less of an unusual occurrence for GM authors to reference their games in opening manuals. They can recognize a good idea when they see it. You probably won't recognize the names of these correspondence masters unless you're a hardcore analyst. Chess is changing in this direction whether you like it or not. I have mixed feelings myself...

Opening research is time consuming and can even be counterproductive to maintaining OTB chess strength. There are different skill sets involved compared to normal OTB play and a good second can minimize some of the time and energy required for opening research. The whole process can be very "dirty" and it helps for someone to clean up the analysis for OTB consumption.

It is possible that Anand likes to analyze the Morra Gambit as some kind of fun side hobby when he gets sick of the Semi-Slav, but the last tournament game I could find where he encountered the Morra was in 1992 against Michael Adams where he played 3...Nf6 as well.  I just don't think it is very high on his list of priorities. I can't read his mind of course, but the Morra is not a common opening among professionals and Van Wely did not think much of it when he saw it, as he confessed in the foreword to Esserman's book. happy.png

ZouDynasty

I think there’s something called the Siberian trap

MetalRatel
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
MetalRatel wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

The best line of play is to play d6, e6 and a6, getting to some kind of a hedgehog position, so the white pieces can not make use of their better development to penetrate, and then develop, retaining a full central d pawn more, which is a lot.

My lines are good, very good indeed, in the opening and everywhere, it is a pity people treat me in that way.

 

This is a very solid line for Black, but I could not find any advantage against 13.Na4:

 

 

 

I don't know.

I looked into it very carefully, and it is a very complicated tactical play in almost all variations, but black gets on top almost always.

One possible line after Na4 is this one, Nh4, to displace the bishop, followed by Bd8, guarding the b6 square.

SF reaches 50-60cps black edge.

A pawn more is a pawn more.

I don't know if that is sufficient for a win though.

As said, very complicated tactically, you need days to analyse it, but black will always retain a clear edge.

 

 

Thanks for the response. This looks interesting, but couldn't White also try to force a perpetual with 21.Bf4? 21...e5 looks a bit risky to play on.

MetalRatel
RaymondMLG wrote:

I think there’s something called the Siberian trap

 

I tried very hard to make that work using Esserman's "Improved Siberian" move order, but objectively I am not even sure that Black is equal against White's best play.

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
Yigor wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

 what is the best first chess move?

 

Imho, in the current state of art, there are 3 clear candidates: 1. d4, 1. e4 and 1. Nf3. 

You successfully managed to select the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best choices.

Congratulations!

m_n0

1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 e4?! may or may not be strong against computers, but it's useless against humans. In fact, multiple 2600+ players have played this position from the Black side a tempo down (1 c4 Nf6 2 Nc3 e6 3 e4 e5!?).

Also, what about 2...Nc6 - ? There, I suspect e2-e4 is even worse, as ...Bc5, ...d6, ...Nge7 and ...f5 is a pretty coherent plan (that I learned from facing 1 e4 e5 2 c4?! a couple times as Black).

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
m_n0 wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
m_n0 wrote:

You've missed the point, I think. 

If the Smith-Morra were as horrible as LT says, Anand would've taken out an hour to prepare 3...dc3 against Esserman. The fact that he went for the pragmatic approach means that Black isn't obviously better, nor winning after 3...dc3, otherwise he'd have just done his homework and taken an easy win.

There are 300 openings and 5000 subopenings.

he can not prepare for everything.

I don't know why I have to explain everything to you. Marc Esserman is a well-known specialist in the Smith-Morra. Even if Anand had no idea who Esserman was, he could check a database and see that Esserman plays the Smith-Morra. The Smith-Morra was then played in the game.

300 openings and 5000 "subopenings" are irrelevant.

You really could not be so stup*d.

And has been paired with Esserman probably just an hour before the game, and most probably, he has been having lunch during this time.

m_n0

I think the fact that you've decided to censor the word "stupid" speaks for itself.

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
BobbyTalparov wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

Yeah, 3rd most popular, but not first, so this implies it is definitely not considered best.

While it is!

So, in a single game, opening theory has changed.

 

You are implying that because something is played more it means people evaluate it to be "the best".  That is an assumption on a massive scale.  Theory has not changed.  In fact, you can even argue that (given how Alpha Zero "taught" itself) that the decision it made was not even the "best", but simply allowed it to get into a situation where it had a better understanding of the position than a brute force engine (which is the same problem many engines have with many opening lines, by the way)

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

 

The point is HOW those moves are ordered and assessed, I think this is clear.

And here things change very much.

 

The order for moves in most opening lines has not changed much in the last 100 years.  They were playing QGD, Italian, Ruy Lopez, and many lines in the Sicilian 100+ years ago.  Sure, Steinitz played a few openings that we do not see played much these days (the Vienna, for example), but that is not due to them being unsound (at least not all of them), but rather the preferences of modern players are different. 

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

 

No one uses opening books to test engines nowadays, mostly 2 moves-long or so, for variety.

You are very much behind on engine testing theory.

 

These statements are so freaking idiotic that I could write an entire post just on them.  One of the big complaints about the Alpha Zero vs Stockfish results was that (wait for it ...) Stockfish was running without an Opening Book (and without an endgame tablebase and odd time controls - which you like to put to shame with your even more absurd time controls)!  Why was that a complaint?  (drum roll ...)

 

To state that "no one uses opening books" with engines anymore is asinine.  From the Komodo 10 release notes:

Komodo can use Polyglot opening books. When playing with a book, Komodo will move instantly if it finds a legal move leading to a position in the book. We have a free book with lots of variety on our site on this page

 

Stockfish also uses Polyglot opening books, FYI.

 

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

If ALL is written down in the holy scriptures of chess databases, why then no one knows what the best first move is?

Why?

Tell me just that very simple thing, looking it up into your extremely useful opening databases:

what is the best first chess move?

Then we can discuss about second moves.

You certainly understand finding a novelty on move 30, when you are unaware what the best first move is is stupid, right?

You are confusing opening lines with chess being solved.  The latter is not the case.  There are no "best first moves" in chess.  e4, d4, Nf3, and c4 are all quite good (probably slightly better than the rest), but you are not likely to lose a game based on your first move alone.  Hell, even a3 can be a decent first move when used appropriately:

Your obsession with centipawns at the opening is amusing, but that is about it.  Now, please go back to complaining about how you don't have time to play OTB while spending hours upon hours trolling forums online with half-baked ideas.

I wondered if I should comment on this at all, as it is such a trollish post.

Just briefly:

B. Talparov: "THERE IS NO BEST FIRST MOVE." happy.pnghappy.png ....

.....

Really, so, all first moves are equal.

Why is then that everybody is searching for the best move in each and every position?

Why is then that ALL chess engines are searching for the best move?

Alpha-beta is based on finding the best move, right?

A quote from Komodo site Komodo could use opening books......

.....

Of course it can, but they mostly test with shorter, 2 moves book.

SF also tests almost exclusively with very short 2 move/5 plies book.

Fact: top engines already DON'T rely on their testing on books.

Another fact: you are completely unfamiliar with what is going on in computer chess.

Btw., it was ME the reason for SF and most top engines switching to using shorter books.

I suggested to them this is the way forward to scientific testing and they soon got convinced.

4 or 5 years ago I released a short 2-move book, fully unbiased, that formed the basis for future developments in the area.

Order has not changed.

Man, are you serious?

Look at those 2 links, the games of Steinitz, and those of Carlsen:

http://www.chessgames.com/player/wilhelm_steinitz.html

http://www.chessgames.com/player/magnus_carlsen.html

First 5 favourite openings for Steinitz with the white pieces: Vienna Opening, French Defence, King's Gambit Declined, King's Gambit Accepted, Evans Gambit

First 5 favourite openings for Carlsen: Sicilian, Ruy Lopez, Queen's Pawn Game, Nimzo-Indian, Slav Defence

Not a SINGLE common opening between the 2!

The black choices are similar.

So, completely the opposite to what you claim: opening theory changes TREMENDOUSLY.

Does it really make sense to argue any more.

3 suppositions, ALL 3 fully WRONG on substance.

Please, get your basic facts right, then we can argue again.

 

 

Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
MetalRatel wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
MetalRatel wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

The best line of play is to play d6, e6 and a6, getting to some kind of a hedgehog position, so the white pieces can not make use of their better development to penetrate, and then develop, retaining a full central d pawn more, which is a lot.

My lines are good, very good indeed, in the opening and everywhere, it is a pity people treat me in that way.

 

This is a very solid line for Black, but I could not find any advantage against 13.Na4:

 

 

 

I don't know.

I looked into it very carefully, and it is a very complicated tactical play in almost all variations, but black gets on top almost always.

One possible line after Na4 is this one, Nh4, to displace the bishop, followed by Bd8, guarding the b6 square.

SF reaches 50-60cps black edge.

A pawn more is a pawn more.

I don't know if that is sufficient for a win though.

As said, very complicated tactically, you need days to analyse it, but black will always retain a clear edge.

 

 

Thanks for the response. This looks interesting, but couldn't White also try to force a perpetual with 21.Bf4? 21...e5 looks a bit risky to play on.

This is just a sample line.

I would hate to see what happens after e5, as this is too tactical, certainly white can not get an advantage.

The move played by SF before that, 20...h6, is more or less meaningless.

Black has better with 20...Nf6.

That is what SF gives: clear advantage for black.

Black has 2 central connected pawns for the rook, more than a comfortable advantage.

Again, I can not check each and every move, but the point is black wins or gest large advantage in some 80% of cases I have tried.

Statistically, that means a lot.

LStein62