How good is Colle System?

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ssctk
Mazetoskylo wrote:
ssctk wrote:
Mazetoskylo wrote:
Alchessblitz wrote:

(ps : We say Colle system but in reality to avoid confusion we should say Colle-Zukertort system because it is almost always this one that is played)

Yet another prophet. Ding won against Nepo a few minutes ago with the Colle- Koltanowski...

yet another game where Ding played the opening to draw and didn't manage to achieve his goals😁

To be fair, the result had nothing to do with the opening. Ding managed to get an exremely complicated position on the board, where mistakes by both sides were inevitable. It was a risk that paid off, and the lesson learned is that chaotic positions may well occur from very quiet, "unambitious" openings.

True, but this means it's a fine opening to create complicated play as well, for me i.e. it came as a surprise, I had the Koltanowski into my "calm & solid" mental bucket, would play it, if e.g. the opponent is not familiar with these positions from the White side of their repertoire.

It was not an opening win indeed, nothing wrong with that !

Alchessblitz
It's very playable and a good choice.

Colle-Zukertort would have my preference over Colle-Koltanowski, though both are fine ( maybe not the best day for this statement 😁 ).

Keep in mind we are talking about systems that Capablanca and Rubinstein had played, the masters of the QGD themselves. Yusupov, a super GM of the past, had played the Colle Zukertort as well.

It's true that White doesn't strive for an advantage, though I'm not sure what's the advantage White gets in a QGD, which I play with both colours.

It's about equal positions and if one who knows their quirks and little details better than the opponent, then an advantage may come.

I'd ignore the voices that say that it's not good and if you like it, then learn it.

Also, there are some good resources to get you started on this ( Palliser has a book d-pawn attacks, Karpov has a recent book on these systems ), as well as high level games to study.

Capablanca used to play the Colle especially while he was evolving, perhaps he used the time he saved for perfecting his endgame technique ?

At some point study in the future the QGD too, because it's got many nice concepts and stratagems but the Colle is a nice system to start out with and keep later on as well to alternate your play and have the opponents guessing what to prepare for.

a : Like many sidelines or openings using the concept of playing a reversed color Black opening + one more move, of course Colle system, Bird Defense, Van 't Kruijs Opening etc. are playable otherwise they are in "the refuted category" like [as Black] Latvian Gambit, Marshall Defense or "trash category" like Damiano Defence.

Now is it a good choice ? It depends notably of our philosophy of the chess game . For example I can play with White 1) d4 d5 2) c4 c6 3) cxd5 cxd5 and of course is playable but I think not in line with the philosophy of seeking to play an opening from advantageous position.

b : Obviously I'm not a gosu etc. so I can't demonstrate an advantage but just playing against a strong chess program is enough I think to get an idea of QGD problems.

Otherwise after 1) d4 d5 2) c4 e6 on the simple 3) cxd5 exd5 we can see an imbalance to the position and for ex. a simple plan like a minority attack says to me, it's not really equal (and the exchange variant is not the most ambitious so it makes optimistic for White).

c : I believe the study or the endgame technique is the hardest thing to do in chess and it tends to annoy because we have to calculate and be precise (tiring), it can last long (endgame of Queens, lot of chess for ex.)... so in short if Capablanca played Colle system for perfecting his endgame technique, I think it convinces rather not to play the Colle system

GWTR
Didn’t Magnus play the Colle-Zuckertort against Karjakin?

Hmm.
ssctk

a. The exchange Slav is a good line to play for a win actually.

b. Playing against a strong engine is pointless for the purpose of comparing openings, anybody would anyhow lose even with odds, nevermind from different equal starting positions.

Switching context to exchange QGD, the fact that there's a plan ( eg minority attack among others ) doesn't imply an advantage, Black too has plans in the Carlsbad.

In any fixed pawn structure out of an opening actually there are known plans for both sides.

c. Point is to save time from opening study and allocate it to endgame study, nothing to do with the endgames of the Colle.

Being accurate and improving calculation is actually a bigger factor for winning than whether one opens a Colle or a QGD

sndeww

I would argue that the colle is just a more aggressive london system, which to be fair isn't saying a lot besides it is very much sound.

Personally I prefer the koltanowski. I find that the zukertort leads to IQP/Hanging pawns too much for my liking, and I'm really bad at handling the IQP/Hanging pawns (although I would be certainly happy to play against them!)

ssctk

Yes but such is life, sometimes we win games from lost positions and sometimes we lose games from won positions. Not just us, the Nepos and the Dings as well, the very best players in the world.

How little role did the choice of opening play for this game, it was about who survived the complications.

How little role did the opening play in the London game, it was about Dings positional mastery and finding an amazing sequence at the end.

How little role did the choice of the French defence play in Ding's loss, it was about time management.

So improving our play in difficult complicated positions, keeping control of the position when at a positional advantage, improving combinatorial vision and improving time management is where efforts should be focused. The Colle vs QGD question is very secondary to all these.

I have to say I'm actually happy Carlsen decided not to defend, he would either dominate, or draw at will to retain the title.

Now that the players are of similar strength the match is more interesting !

I also like the way Magnus did it, he just said, hey, sorry but I'm simply not doing this.

He didn't taint the next champ, who may reach his level of play in 10 years if ever, nor did he find something to blame for not playing.

NORMIEnerd69

In the opening it is similar to London system

Mazetoskylo
ssctk wrote:

a. The exchange Slav is a good line to play for a win actually.

Patriarch Botvinnik would pat you on the back for this comment.

ssctk
Mazetoskylo wrote:
ssctk wrote:

a. The exchange Slav is a good line to play for a win actually.

Patriarch Botvinnik would pat you on the back for this comment.

His best games trilogy from Moravian is great and has games in the exchange !, that's where I got the first nudge for the exchange (for a win). I may get his complete games trilogy as well at some point, if it's worth it.

Fully annotated games is one of the bests way to mind lines in my view. Kasparov has written a ton of great books, even his early ones, Botvinnik as well, Keres too, even Karpov who has huge variability in his quality as an author has a great annotated games book or two.

Sometimes the modern interpretation and treatment of a line can be different but that's what DBs are for.