moonnie wrote:
Your plan has a slight flaw. After 6. Nxe5 it is blacks move and not white's and he will play Bc5 stopping Re1 (because of Bxf2). With the bishop pair and no white pawn majority on the kingside in my opinion black is better in your line
That is true but then white can play 7. Nd3 forcing the bishop to retreat or be defended ( in this case white can play Nxc5 eliminating black's bishop pair) and then playing Re1
5. O-O Nxe4 6. Nxe5 Bc5 7. Qe2 Qd5 8. Nd3 O-O 9. Nxc5 Nxc5 looks like it deprives Black of his bishop pair for no good reason.
6...Be7 7. Re1 Nf6 8. Qe2 transposes into the rather insipid 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. Re1 Be7 7. Nxe5 Be7 8. Qe2 as seen in Anand-Kramnik Mainz 2001. I really don't see this as a winning attempt.
aggressivesociopath the first line u gave deprives black of the bishop pair to equalize the game as now both sides have the same material but black has doubled pawns on the c file and white has the only remaining central pawn and should be able to get a better center with c2-c3/d2-d4 and bring the queenside knight to e3 or g3, which are two of white's main ideas in the ruy Lopez, with the added dimension of an open e-file
aggressivesociopath in the second line u give I would have no intention of Qe2 b/c the idea of my line is to create an open e-file and exploit pins and discovered checks, as well as gain control of the center with the only remaining center pawn, and hopping to exploit black's doubled c-pawns
watch out for the fishing pole trap as white.
That is true but then white can play 7. Nd3 forcing the bishop to retreat or be defended ( in this case white can play Nxc5 eliminating black's bishop pair) and then playing Re1
You can play Nd3 but black will just retreat his bishop to b6. No bishop pair, no Re1 and a knight that is placed pretty bad on d3. Black is slightly better
The queen e2 idea is better but still dead equal in line 1. Black may have a double pawn but it does not give white a majority to work with and black's pieces are more active too.
Hey guys, please give some diagrams with some of your variations?
Hello.
You can play 4.O-O Nxe4 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Rxe5+ Be7 8.Bd3 (A player from the Shiraz university team played 8.Nce here, but no need giving your two Bishops).
a vry wild game will arise. White is not bad
For Ponz
moonnie b/c of Nd3 white can play Re1 b/c the knight now defends the f2 square leaving 2 attackers ( black's knight and bishop) against 2 defenders ( white's king and knight) thus white can play Re1 pinning black's knight and making it one attacker on 2 defenders. at this point white can go after the black knight, perhaps with pawn to f3 and other ideas, and the pin means black will lose material
How? After Be7 there are no discovered checks and Black simply castles out of the pin. Black retains the bishop pair and White lacks a kingside majority. If White plays c3 and d4 he has to watch out for the d pawn becoming fixed and exchanged off for Blacks more advanced c pawn. White has no advantage in either of the two lines I gave. I would suggest looking elsewhere for a way to avoid the Berlin endgame.
For Ponz
Moonies' blue line was the other line I gave.
However the game is equall, and black has to play carefully to avoid dangerous mistakes and losing material. White's advantage comes from having the only remaining central pawn and black's damaged queenside structure which is vulnerable to attack. like the echange variation, my line is only recomendable if you know how to exploit such a weakness. and in the grand scheem of things, all this is is a different possibility to play against the "Berlin wall"
How is the game equal and White has an advantage? You are kind of hoping Black will hang the c7 pawn. Also the exchange variation is based on a kingside pawn majority, Black's double c pawns are relevent because they represent a "crippled" majority that cannot be transfored into a passed pawn. Here White's pawn is on the d file, it does not control space as you seem to think, at least not more then the pawn on c6, which keeps White's knight off of b5 or d5.
I assumed you wanted something that had offered White better winning chances then the Berlin endgame, if that is not true, by all means keep playing this line, you just won't get very far with it.
aggressivesociopath is correct. Also black can always play c5 and either exchange on d4 (if white plays d4) or create an outpost on the half open d-file (if white plays d3). Either case black is completly fine.
Also just think reasonable. white moves twice with his bishop and 3 times with his knight in the opening. How can you expect an advantage after that ?
I suggest you read 2 books that help you understand that white has no advantage here
yeah you guys are right. that move i suggested has too much downside for the upside it offers. However, one idea i found recently is for white to play (at least his half of) the Four Kinghts' (or Tarrasch) variation.
Now black must play either d6, to shore up the e5 pawn and avoid material loss, or Bc4, which transposes to the main line of the Four Knights' Opening ( for info on the Four Kinghts, see this video @ http://chessopenings.com/four+knights/, i really recomend this video and all the ones on the site) this will prevent the main goals of black in the berlin defense, and white should have no trouble reaching a comfortable game because of either the space disadvantage black submits himself to with d6 ( as well as the ability to play d4) or the advantages white gains from the four kinght's opening.
Four knights is a viable option of course, but it's not really going to test black.
You guys are right. my move has too many drawbacks. however, i have found that the Four Knigts variation is very effective
Now black must play Bc5 ( main line of the Four Knights Opening http://chessopenings.com/four+knights/, which black is unlikely to know), or d6 to shore up the e5 pawn and avoid losing it, and submit to the classical ruy lopez space disadvantage. white now has no trouble reaching a comfortable game and can play d4 if black played d6. also, the c3 knight can find a very nice outpost on d5
You guys are right. my move has too many drawbacks. however, i have found that the Four Knigts variation is very effective
Now black must play Bc5 ( main line of the Four Knights Opening http://chessopenings.com/four+knights/, which black is unlikely to know), or d6 to shore up the e5 pawn and avoid losing it, and submit to the classical ruy lopez space disadvantage. white now has no trouble reaching a comfortable game and can play d4 if black played d6. also, the c3 knight can find a very nice outpost on d5
Curious, why do you think Black would be unlikely to have a line prepared against the Four Knights'? If Black is willing to play 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 surely he has to take 3.Nc3 into account and 3...Nf6 is the number one move.
Also there are Black options aside from the ones you gave. 4...Bb4, 4...Nd4, 4...Bd6 are all valid tries.
It is still for sale. I have it too. The first part is still top of the bill. The variations in the end are a little out dated though