how to transpose

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Avatar of c_sayan2016

hi

 

how to transpose an openings into different game.

i am playing only for two months of chess.

Avatar of Diakonia

Youre dropping pieces, missing simple tactics, and not even following opening principles.  Why are you trying to learn soomething way above your ability, when you arent even learning the basics?

Avatar of c_sayan2016

please explain if u know it ... if u want me to learn more basics theories ...

sorry to say ... (Hope you can guess )

Avatar of dauber_wins
c_sayan2016 wrote:

please explain if u know it ... if u want me to learn more basics theories ...

sorry to say ... (Hope you can guess )

He told you its pointless , so he's not wasting his time.  Stop wasting everyones time. You are not clever , you suck at chess and your only purpose in life is to procreate.  Seriously, useless drones are such a waste of everyones time.

Avatar of Diakonia
c_sayan2016 wrote:

please explain if u know it ... if u want me to learn more basics theories ...

sorry to say ... (Hope you can guess )

What do you want me to explain?

How not to drop pieces?

How not to miss simple tactics?

How to follow opening principles?

Avatar of Sqod

I don't understand the hostility here. Are people never supposed to look at topics beyond their current ability? The OP doesn't look like a troll, per his profile & history.

Here are a few things I know about transposition:

(1) You can't always force a transposition because all openings depend on both players.

(2) Noncommittal moves like Nf3/Nf6, e3/e6, c4/c5, or g3/g6 tend to transpose more easily because the important, defining, committal moves haven't been made yet. Similarly, openings with such moves, like the Zukertort, French, or English tend to have more transpositions.

(3) Certain pairs of moves usually transpose into each other because in certain cases and positions their order is not important, or after a capture a bishop might end up on the same square anyway.

If the OP is sufficiently interested I can post examples of these statements.

Avatar of dauber_wins
Sqod wrote:

I don't understand the hostility here. Are people never supposed to look at topics beyond their current ability? The OP doesn't look like a troll, per his profile & history.

Here are a few things I know about transposition:

(1) You can't always force a transposition because all openings depend on both players.

(2) Noncommittal moves like Nf3/Nf6, e3/e6, c4/c5, or g3/g6 tend to transpose more easily because the important, defining, committal moves haven't been made yet. Similarly, openings with such moves, like the Zukertort, French, or English tend to have more transpositions.

(3) Certain pairs of moves usually transpose into each other because in certain cases and positions their order is not important, or after a capture a bishop might end up on the same square anyway.

If the OP is sufficiently interested I can post examples of these statements.

He ignored diakonia's advice.  Then he comes back and tries to insult him.  Why would you help such a fool?

Avatar of c_sayan2016

@sqod I am interested to know it.

FYI:- forum is just for helping each other so it is good for each other to share the knowledge to everyone.

Avatar of tmkroll

say we play 1. e4 e6 (this is the French defense) 2. d4 is the mainline.

Now say instead we play 1. d4 and Black responds with e6 going for a Stonewall or something. Black has allowed a transposition to the French Defense. Now White can play 2. e4 and we've reached the main position French Defense (a King's Pawn opening,) but from a Queen's pawn open move order. 



Avatar of Diakonia
Sqod wrote:

I don't understand the hostility here. Are people never supposed to look at topics beyond their current ability? The OP doesn't look like a troll, per his profile & history.

Here are a few things I know about transposition:

(1) You can't always force a transposition because all openings depend on both players.

(2) Noncommittal moves like Nf3/Nf6, e3/e6, c4/c5, or g3/g6 tend to transpose more easily because the important, defining, committal moves haven't been made yet. Similarly, openings with such moves, like the Zukertort, French, or English tend to have more transpositions.

(3) Certain pairs of moves usually transpose into each other because in certain cases and positions their order is not important, or after a capture a bishop might end up on the same square anyway.

If the OP is sufficiently interested I can post examples of these statements.

No hostility.  But when youre dropping pieces, missng simple tactics, and dont even follow opening principles, why are you trying to understand/learn how to transpose?

Avatar of c_sayan2016

@Sqod is it as simple as that ? the way Diakonia told i thought it is so complex thing to understand ...

 

Avatar of Sqod
c_sayan2016 wrote:

@Sqod is it as simple as that ? the way Diakonia told i thought it is so complex thing to understand ...

Yes, the basic idea is extremely simple, just as tmkroll described. If you draw a diagram it's easy to see: If more than one game line leads to the same position, then the branches of the move tree merge instead of continuing to fan out as usual, therefore there exist multiple paths to reach the same position. In tmkroll's example, the two branches are...

1. d4 {Queen's pawn opening.} e6 2. e4

1. e4 {King's pawn opening.} e6 2. d4

...which start out on different branches (the d4 branch and the e4 branch), but then merge on White's 2nd move because the positions are the same at that move. That's a case where a Queen's pawn opening transposed into King's pawn opening, or vice versa.

In a few minutes I'll post some examples of the finer points I was mentioning...

Here are two branches of the Scandinavian Defense whose continuations I wrote down recently, then I noticed that the moves in those variations looked awfully similar, then upon closer examination I realized they were identical: they had merged to the same position: a transposition! (The names in quotes are mine, to make the situation clearer.)

I ran into a similar case recently in the Colle System: I noticed the continuations looked identical even though Black's kingside bishop had been developed to different squares (...Bd6 versus ...Be7). Upon closer examination I realized the reason: after that bishop captures White's c5-pawn pawn via ...Bxc5, the bishops end up on the same square, therefore all my concern about which square was "best" turned out to be moot: In the most common cases the bishop's original destination square was irrelevant! The two lines transposed to the same position. Play through both the following positions to the end, then compare the positions to prove this to yourself.

In fact, the Colle System itself can arise by numerous transpositions, starting as the following different lines...

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 etc.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. d4 d5 etc.

...that end up with the same board position.

Avatar of jassimmohd

1- YOU NEED TO DECIDE THE MAJOR  GROUPS OF OPENINGS  THAT DECIDE THE POSSIBILITIES OF TRANSPOSITIONS AT START IE OPEN , CLOSED, SEMI-OPEN, SEMI-CLOSED. AND FURTHER SUBGROUPS IE INDIAN, RUY LOPEZ, ITALIAN.....ETC. KEEPING IN MIND THAT YOUR OPPONENT CAN RESIST YOUR EFFORT TO TRANSPORTATION AT ANY STAGE TOWARDS IRRIGULAR (LESS COMMON OR UNORTHODOX  VARIATIONS)

2- YOU NEED TO KNOW THE CONTRADICTS TO TRANSPOSITIONS IN EACH. FOR EXAMPLE d3 contradicts with d4, e3 contradicts w e4, Reti contradict with king gambit or Birds and visa verse, English contradict with openings relies on Nc3, and within deeper level for example 1. d4 d5 2. c4 Bf5 (uncommon queens gambit) crossing the Bishop contradicts with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 (the common orthodox line) but not with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 (the Slav).

3-THIS SUBJECT IS SEVERLY UNDER-ESTIMATED IN CHESS OPENING THEORY. AS EACH CHESS OPENING GROUP AND VARIATION  CARRY POTENTIALS OF TRANSPOSITIONS THAT NEED  TO DEFINE AND CATEGORIZE THE MOVE SEQUENCES IN EACH STEP BY PREIORITIES (WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN AGREED YET) FOR THAT REASON, THERE IS A LOT OF DEVIATIONS AMONG DATABASES OF DIFFERENT CHESS EXPLORERS AND PROGRAMS. (ECO DID NOT SOLVE THIS ISSUE) 

Avatar of kindaspongey

Has c_sayan2016 been here since 2016?

Avatar of TheoEkman

If you are looking for openings that commonly transpose, then the Reti opening maybe?

Avatar of jassimmohd

The short answer to this question is to know all chess openings with their variations for the complete answer. or at least the the concerned opening (or variation) and disect its basic moves components and workout the related moves in other openings shared with.

Avatar of jassimmohd
TheoEkman wrote:

If you are looking for openings that commonly transpose, then the Reti opening maybe?

If you accept a single move as an opening, then King pawn game and Queen pawn game are most common and hence possibilities of diverse transpositions.

Reti comes next

Avatar of jassimmohd
TheoEkman wrote:

If you are looking for openings that commonly transpose, then the Reti opening maybe?

indeed openings with knight first move on both sides con be transposed to any opening simply when both players agree to return both knights back and restart again. 

So knight move does not strictly define an opening, but the non-reversible moves. and in this case a new transposed position with king knight move (with respect to Reti) can have a variant you can simply call it Accelerated king knight variation.

Avatar of TheoEkman
jassimmohd skrev:
TheoEkman wrote:

If you are looking for openings that commonly transpose, then the Reti opening maybe?

indeed openings with knight first move on both sides con be transposed to any opening simply when both players agree to return both knights back and restart again. 

So knight move does not strictly define an opening, but the non-reversible moves. and in this case a new transposed position with king knight move (with respect to Reti) can have a variant you can simply call it Accelerated king knight variation.

Then there are no openings that can transpose since "it would not be the same opening anymore". The reti opening commonly transpose into opening systems where the first move most commonly played is e4 or d4 which is a transposed position according to me.