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I don't understand the King's Indian Defense

ApolL26
pfren skrev:

Black can trim a lot the required amount of the theory he needs to learn in the KID. Here's one example:

 

This line is very reliable, and white has been unable to demonstrate an advantage.

In the Grunfeld, such "shortcuts" are rare.

That line is still just worse according to the computer, which i suppose the King's Indian always is, but that line is bad in practice too, especially if you want to win. Look at a database and look at the scoring percentages. It's also very difficult to play with the black pieces, so i would argue you that you should play Nc6 or Na6 there

play4fun64

If White fiancetto his King's bishop, which is better for black? KID or Gruenfeld setup?

DaBabysBurner
play4fun64 wrote:

If White fiancetto his King's bishop, which is better for black? KID or Gruenfeld setup?

Kid because the pawn would be pressured by the bishop as well

beginner7196
play4fun64 wrote:

If White fiancetto his King's bishop, which is better for black? KID or Gruenfeld setup?

 

Grunfeld. The Fianchetto King's Indian might be White's safest option against the King's Indian; safe king and a bishop that can help take the queenside. In the "Fianchetto Grunfeld"  White is basically just asking for a calm game and a draw against experienced Grunfeld players in a symmetrical position. 

pfren
ApolL26 έγραψε:
pfren skrev:

Black can trim a lot the required amount of the theory he needs to learn in the KID. Here's one example:

 

This line is very reliable, and white has been unable to demonstrate an advantage.

In the Grunfeld, such "shortcuts" are rare.

That line is still just worse according to the computer, which i suppose the King's Indian always is, but that line is bad in practice too, especially if you want to win. Look at a database and look at the scoring percentages. It's also very difficult to play with the black pieces, so i would argue you that you should play Nc6 or Na6 there

 

If your computer says that Black is in a bad shape, then either you don't know how to use an engine, or the engine itself is drunk.

FYI I know this line inside-out: Black is just fine.

Actually I think that at least in CC level, the whole line is just a draw.

9...Nc6 is the move to play, and a somewhat more adventurous alternative is 9...c6. The idea of Nc6 is of course to contest the dark squares by the typical ...Nh5-f4 idea.

RussBell

For White against the KID, the Averbakh Variation is an excellent, dangerous response. See for example a game commented on in Mikhail Golubev's book "Understanding the King's Indian", p.108 - Bareev-Akopian Moscow GMA 1990 - where Golubev comments "...Black's practical results in this line so far have been rather disastrous".

See also Hanging Pawns' tutorial on the Averbakh Variation where he considers it almost a bust to KID...at the least, very difficult for Black to defend...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqJkqqPMm8E

 

B1ZMARK
play4fun64 wrote:

If White fiancetto his King's bishop, which is better for black? KID or Gruenfeld setup?

as someone who plays the fianchetto against everything, I can say with confidence that it's Grunfeld.

ApolL26
pfren skrev:
ApolL26 έγραψε:
pfren skrev:

Black can trim a lot the required amount of the theory he needs to learn in the KID. Here's one example:

 

This line is very reliable, and white has been unable to demonstrate an advantage.

In the Grunfeld, such "shortcuts" are rare.

That line is still just worse according to the computer, which i suppose the King's Indian always is, but that line is bad in practice too, especially if you want to win. Look at a database and look at the scoring percentages. It's also very difficult to play with the black pieces, so i would argue you that you should play Nc6 or Na6 there

 

If your computer says that Black is in a bad shape, then either you don't know how to use an engine, or the engine itself is drunk.

FYI I know this line inside-out: Black is just fine.

Actually I think that at least in CC level, the whole line is just a draw.

9...Nc6 is the move to play, and a somewhat more adventurous alternative is 9...c6. The idea of Nc6 is of course to contest the dark squares by the typical ...Nh5-f4 idea.

The computer doesn't say that black is in deep trouble, but it does give a comfortable advantage to white, which of course is hard to actually evaluate because it's the KID, the computer always favours white. I just think the line doesn't seem too practical at below master level, and even on that level, white still has a pretty clear practical and theoretical edge. Another thing is, that black will have a hard time winning, and if you want to play for a draw the KID isn't the best choice

pfren
ApolL26 έγραψε:
pfren skrev:
ApolL26 έγραψε:
pfren skrev:

Black can trim a lot the required amount of the theory he needs to learn in the KID. Here's one example:

 

This line is very reliable, and white has been unable to demonstrate an advantage.

In the Grunfeld, such "shortcuts" are rare.

That line is still just worse according to the computer, which i suppose the King's Indian always is, but that line is bad in practice too, especially if you want to win. Look at a database and look at the scoring percentages. It's also very difficult to play with the black pieces, so i would argue you that you should play Nc6 or Na6 there

 

If your computer says that Black is in a bad shape, then either you don't know how to use an engine, or the engine itself is drunk.

FYI I know this line inside-out: Black is just fine.

Actually I think that at least in CC level, the whole line is just a draw.

9...Nc6 is the move to play, and a somewhat more adventurous alternative is 9...c6. The idea of Nc6 is of course to contest the dark squares by the typical ...Nh5-f4 idea.

The computer doesn't say that black is in deep trouble, but it does give a comfortable advantage to white, which of course is hard to actually evaluate because it's the KID, the computer always favours white. I just think the line doesn't seem too practical at below master level, and even on that level, white still has a pretty clear practical and theoretical edge. Another thing is, that black will have a hard time winning, and if you want to play for a draw the KID isn't the best choice

 

I find Black's way to create meaningful play quite intuitive in this line. I have played a few games as Black, and all ended in draws, while I had zero problems in all of them.

Here is just one of them, following a previous game for several moves.

 

 

ApolL26
pfren skrev:
ApolL26 έγραψε:
pfren skrev:
ApolL26 έγραψε:
pfren skrev:

Black can trim a lot the required amount of the theory he needs to learn in the KID. Here's one example:

 

This line is very reliable, and white has been unable to demonstrate an advantage.

In the Grunfeld, such "shortcuts" are rare.

That line is still just worse according to the computer, which i suppose the King's Indian always is, but that line is bad in practice too, especially if you want to win. Look at a database and look at the scoring percentages. It's also very difficult to play with the black pieces, so i would argue you that you should play Nc6 or Na6 there

 

If your computer says that Black is in a bad shape, then either you don't know how to use an engine, or the engine itself is drunk.

FYI I know this line inside-out: Black is just fine.

Actually I think that at least in CC level, the whole line is just a draw.

9...Nc6 is the move to play, and a somewhat more adventurous alternative is 9...c6. The idea of Nc6 is of course to contest the dark squares by the typical ...Nh5-f4 idea.

The computer doesn't say that black is in deep trouble, but it does give a comfortable advantage to white, which of course is hard to actually evaluate because it's the KID, the computer always favours white. I just think the line doesn't seem too practical at below master level, and even on that level, white still has a pretty clear practical and theoretical edge. Another thing is, that black will have a hard time winning, and if you want to play for a draw the KID isn't the best choice

 

I find Black's way to create meaningful play quite intuitive in this line. I have played a few games as Black, and all ended in draws, while I had zero problems in all of them.

Here is just one of them, following a previous game for several moves.

 

 

Of course it fits some players playing styles, but it's still easier to play as white. Judging by those results, i think we can both agree that it isn't the a very ambitious line, which is sort of the opposite of the point of the KID