I Hate the Kingside Pawnstorm

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chessdude46

It seems to happen to me every single game that I play as black, and it really annoys me. I was wondering if there is a black opening against e4 that does not have any risk against this sort of thing.

 

(Right now I play the Pirc and the Najdorf Sicilian)

ivandh

In general (and I'm not going to be specific because I know less than nothing about opening theory), you probably need to do a better job of creating threats and counterplay. A pawn storm takes a while, so if you are having this problem regularly it would indicate to me that you are not doing enough to keep white busy and/or uncomfortable.

An example game or two would help with the diagnosis.

chessdude46

I'm having a hard time finding a specific e4 black example, so I'll just show you a kingside pawnstorm game I've been in.

I played this a while ago, so it's hard for me to remember what I was thinking.

JamesColeman

Suffice to say that 11.Bxc5 was positional suicide, improving his structure and negating any chance of starting the queenside counterplay that White usually enjoys in the classical KID, as well as really leaving White without a constructive plan. Whilst he didn't play totally precisely, his position did play itself to a large extent.

11.Nd2 defending the e4 pawn and preparing the usual plan of b3/a3/b4 etc was the way to go there.

crownedbishop

Well, if you're playing against the King's Indian Defense, you will come across a kingside pawnstorm very often, especially in the lines that you played. 7. d5 is typical of lines where black has a kingside pawn storm, and white has a queenside pawn storm.

benedictus

In this example, the problem is you make a lot of moves that just waste time, while your opponent prepares an attack. 

9. h3 just weakens your kingside pawn structure

13. Bd3 puts the bishop on a less active square since it's blocked by pawns. You seem to realize this yourself later on when you put it back on e2. 

15. Nc3 is moving a piece away from the action

20. Rad1 is completely ignoring the pawn storm. f3 preventing g4 looks much better. And Bxh3 gxh3 Qxh3 Rf2 looks like black doesn't really have anything going. 

chessdude46

I realize that I made a lot of mistakes here, and this isn't my typical game. But can anybody give me some advice on what I should go when I have the kingside fianchettoed structure and I've castled on that side and my opponent starts pushing their g and h pawns?

ivandh

As I (and others) have said, play more aggressively. Avoid locking up the centre, that also increases the probability of pawn pushes.

Mainline_Novelty

When your opponent is playing on the wing, look for oppurtunities to break in the center.

Mandy711

The Najdorf and Pirc invite pawn storm. Improve defensive play and black can withstand and even win. Study games of GMs (specially Kasparov, the best Najdorf player) how they defend against pawn storm.

Rational_Optimist

you need to be more specific.chess is complicated.but as was mentioned before if you have no idea about subtleties of king indian and these sort of openings avoid them.you play theory memorize some moves and then you have no idea what is going on.when you close the center,flank attacks become so powerful and the one who has initiative is superior,you need to create counterplay but in this game you didnt have one since center and queenside was closed and in kingside your opponent started a furious attack when you could only watch how he is preparing his attack.

plutonia
chessdude46 wrote:

It seems to happen to me every single game that I play as black, and it really annoys me. I was wondering if there is a black opening against e4 that does not have any risk against this sort of thing.

 

(Right now I play the Pirc and the Najdorf Sicilian)

 

well, there's this strange and awkward move that nobody wants to play except for some GM from time to time.

 

1...e5 ?!

varelse1

"The best defense against a flank attack is a central counterattack."

vinsvis

Another idea of CM Coleman's Nd2 is that an eventual f5 break by black can be answered by taking on f5 and playing f4 yourself. I dunno exactly about this game, but that's often a strong way to react to f5.

ManlyLadyLumps

I would suggest not playing the Sicilian, much less the Najdorf, if you are not an aggressive player

varelse1

Try the Russian. Most the play all ends up in the center there.

ThrillerFan

Chessdude, in your post #3, you played a Classical King's Indian, Petrosian Variation, which the main purpose for 7.d5 instead of 7.O-O is to slow up Black's Kingside Attack, and then you play the wrong 8th move, and so immediately your position is worse.  8.Bg5 is the correct move.

If you play 1.d4, and you don't want to face a Kingside Pawn Storm when your opponent plays the King's Indian, either study up on the Petrosian Variation and actually play it right, or else don't play the Classical, and go for the Saemisch or Four Pawns Attack.

As for Black, if you play the Najdorf, you shouldn't be worried about a Kingside Pawn Storm, Black almost never castles in the Najdorf, so your King should be in the center.

As for the Pirc, again, you are begging for pawns to be stormed at your King.  Don't take a hypermodern approach.  Play 1...e5.

You won't get any better if you go based on the mentality of just outright avoiding certain aspects of the game.  Every move should be based on the question "What is the best move on the board", and NOT "What move avoids a pawn storm" or "What move avoids an Isolated Queen Pawn position" or "What moves allows me to trade a Bishop for a Knight because I always like Knights more" or any other bullsh*t comment that just continues to show chess ignorance.

plutonia
ThrillerFan wrote:

You won't get any better if you go based on the mentality of just outright avoiding certain aspects of the game.  Every move should be based on the question "What is the best move on the board", and NOT "What move avoids a pawn storm" or "What move avoids an Isolated Queen Pawn position" or "What moves allows me to trade a Bishop for a Knight because I always like Knights more" or any other bullsh*t comment that just continues to show chess ignorance.

 

Don't be so strict, somebody might simply dislike certain positions and legitimately asks for ways to avoid them.

ivandh
ThrillerFan a écrit :

You won't get any better if you go based on the mentality of just outright avoiding certain aspects of the game.  Every move should be based on the question "What is the best move on the board", and NOT "What move avoids a pawn storm" or "What move avoids an Isolated Queen Pawn position" or "What moves allows me to trade a Bishop for a Knight because I always like Knights more" or any other bullsh*t comment that just continues to show chess ignorance.

It would be pretty useless to start a thread asking "how do I make the best move." By identifying a particular problem in his game, he can actually get useful advice on how to fix that problem and thereby play a better game overall.

ThrillerFan
plutonia wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:

You won't get any better if you go based on the mentality of just outright avoiding certain aspects of the game.  Every move should be based on the question "What is the best move on the board", and NOT "What move avoids a pawn storm" or "What move avoids an Isolated Queen Pawn position" or "What moves allows me to trade a Bishop for a Knight because I always like Knights more" or any other bullsh*t comment that just continues to show chess ignorance.

 

Don't be so strict, somebody might simply dislike certain positions and legitimately asks for ways to avoid them.


And this is exactly what shows chess ignorance.  Whether you dislike certain positions or not, everybody has to deal with them, and if you are going to make second-best moves just to avoid a certain dislike, you will never get better.

For example, many amateurs hate doubled pawns, but after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Bd2 Bxc3, to insist on playing 7.Bxc3 just for the mere sake of avoiding doubled pawns is a prime example of showing chess ignorance even when every book and every player rated higher than you takes with the pawn.

To make a certain move just to prevent a pawn storm over moves that best improve the position are another example.

Another extremely common scenario is you already traded your c-pawn for Black's d-pawn.  Now Black has taken on d4 with his c-pawn.  You have 2 choices.  You can play exd4 with your pawn on e3 or Nxd4 with your knight on f3.  If you take with the pawn, you have 2 pieces controlling e5.  If you take with the Knight, you have None, and because you hate IQPs, you take with the Knight, but allowing ...e5 by Black allows him to equalize and taking with the pawn gives you a large advantage.  Learn to deal with the nuances that result form playing the best moves.  Prevent Defense doesn't work in football, and it doesn't work in chess either.