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is the bird (f4) a sound opening?

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Avatar of urk
urk
Feb 4, 2017
0
#21
Indeed
And it's Black's choice to have a Dutch reversed or not.

But there is a lot of room for original play in the Bird, I'll give it that.
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e4_guy
Feb 4, 2017
0
#22
Optimissed wrote:

<<Long time controls is another story, since 1.f4 starts with ~ -0.20 for white, opposed to 1.e4 or 1.d4 which are both + 0.20.>>

That's impossible and just shows how chess engine position evaluation is flawed.

Chess engines do now what is already done by great masters before.

There is a reason why GM-s stick to 1.d4 and 1.e4 after so many centuries. I presume it's because of slight advantage with these two, over equal opponent.
Of course that Bird is not "unsound" but rather with less options.

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kindaspongey
Feb 4, 2017
0
#23

"... The Bird Opening has always been the domain of 'ordinary' club players rather than grandmasters, but just as with 1 g3 and 1 b3, the Danish world-class player Bent Larsen deserves a special mention in this respect. He admitted that his colleagues did not think much of 1 f4, but 'precisely for this reason they do not play it and have no knowledge of it'. Larsen himself on the other hand knew the possibilities of this opening very well and he had some shrewd and original ideas about it. He often used it as a surprise weapon or to test his opponents. Well, if they think 1 f4 is not a good move, let them show it! So in a way he was subjecting his opponents to an examination, which of course always added a certain psychological tension to the opening phase. ..." - GM Paul van der Sterren (2009)

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Optimissed
Feb 5, 2017
0
#24
e4_guy wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

<<Long time controls is another story, since 1.f4 starts with ~ -0.20 for white, opposed to 1.e4 or 1.d4 which are both + 0.20.>>

That's impossible and just shows how chess engine position evaluation is flawed.

Chess engines do now what is already done by great masters before.

There is a reason why GM-s stick to 1.d4 and 1.e4 after so many centuries. I presume it's because of slight advantage with these two, over equal opponent.
Of course that Bird is not "unsound" but rather with less options.>>>

Yes, I start with 1d4. If someone plays 1...f5, he'll probably get 2e4, which is way, way under-rated, in my opinion. But against 1f4, I don't want to give up a pawn with 1... e5 and then have to try to equalise against best play. And I don't want a reversed Dutch with 1 ...d5, so I go 1 ...c5 and hope for a Sicilian, which I often get. Even so, if chess engines evaluate 1 f4 at -0.2, then they're wrong. 1f4 takes central space and is sound; and is therefore a small, positive score.

 

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e4_guy
Feb 5, 2017
0
#25

I think I've played at least 1500 games here starting with 1.f4. It doesn't always get top develop as Bird opening because of 1...c5 or 1...g6 from black, but it's safe to say I had played enough Bird games to know "some" about it.

It is inferior to two most used openings, one doesn't need an engine to see that.

But I love it, and I play it in 100% of my blitz games as white. I feel comfortable with it, and if I'm not distracted much (usually I am) I can play against any opponent.

But, to say again, Bird is not best tool to win long control game, especially if black avoids From's gambit or modern defense. 

If You think that engine is wrong about evaluation after 1.f4 - please let it calculate to 40ply+ level and let us all know the result.

 

Avatar of Kretinovich
FM Kretinovich
Feb 5, 2017
0
#26

Baadur Jobava very recently won a game in the bird in the swedish Team ch vs a 2500 GM. Look that up

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FM Kretinovich
Feb 5, 2017
0
#27

 

Avatar of DiogenesDue
DiogenesDue
Feb 5, 2017
0
#28
mecuelgalapieza wrote:
 
According to engines, you give away more than a quarter of pawn witha some mainstream openings, such as the KID, the Benoni... Even with white, ten years ago the Italian game was considered a suboptimal opening, nowadays everyone is playing it. Carsen has set a revival for some forgotten openings, the Colle for example, I wouldn´t be surprised if he gives a try to the Bird one of this days.
Not likely.  The Bird is nowhere near as viable as the Italian.  Also, the Bird gives up almost half a pawn according to the engines (evals at -0.20 down from 0.20 to 0.25 for very best openings).  My quarter pawn assertion was purely my own playing experience.  The Bird exerts no appreciable pressure/initiative off the bat.
Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#29
e4_guy wrote:

If You think that engine is wrong about evaluation after 1.f4 - please let it calculate to 40ply+ level and let us all know the result.>>>

No, I **know** it's wrong because I can work it out from logic applied to sound principles. One of those principles is that after 40 ply of a game, chess engines' evaluation will have altered. They still don't calculate positional play anywhere near perfectly.

 

 

Avatar of adumbrate
adumbrate
Feb 6, 2017
0
#30

no

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#31
StupidGM wrote:
Optimissed wrote:

<<Long time controls is another story, since 1.f4 starts with ~ -0.20 for white, opposed to 1.e4 or 1.d4 which are both + 0.20.>>

That's impossible and just shows how chess engine position evaluation is flawed.

The 0.20 either way means nothing and familiarity is worth at least double that.

The Bird is sound, very limiting, and can bore Black to death, but it's pretty easy to attack once Black gets the hang of it.

Not my style but I've seen players do well with it and with the stonewall.>>>

Well said, stupid.

You know I was kind of hoping you'd answer one of my posts so I could write that. Little things/little minds etc.

 

 

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#32
Leo_C wrote:

 >>>>>>>

Black allowing a reversed Dutch is illogical, given the Dutch is sound.

Avatar of adumbrate
adumbrate
Feb 6, 2017
0
#33

the Dutch is not sound

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Cat-Balloon
Feb 6, 2017
0
#34

the Bird is great, i keep whacking it with the From Gambit, some bloke tried to avoid the From today, whacked him anyway.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#35
btickler wrote:
mecuelgalapieza wrote:
 
The Bird is nowhere near as viable as the Italian.>>

Since they're both sound and neither wins by force, they're exactly equally viable.

<<Also, the Bird gives up almost half a pawn according to the engines (evals at -0.20 down from 0.20 to 0.25 for very best openings).  My quarter pawn assertion was purely my own playing experience.  The Bird exerts no appreciable pressure/initiative off the bat.>>

The Bird is bound to be a small positive score. It cannot logically be -0.2, which is human error in the programming. So the Bird probably gives up 0.15

 

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Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#36
adumbrate wrote:

the Dutch is not sound>>>>

Does it lose by force?

Then it's sound.

Avatar of DiogenesDue
DiogenesDue
Feb 6, 2017
0
#37
Optimissed wrote:
 


The Bird is bound to be a small positive score. It cannot logically be -0.2, which is human error in the programming. So the Bird probably gives up 0.15

 

No, the Bird is not "bound to be a small positive score".  It weakens the white king's position, which is a trade off for the center pawn.  So that is a wash (0.00)...however, the tempo is also lost, and black gets to play...ergo black effectively gets the first move's 0.20 that white handed over (-0.20).

There's no human error in the programming (at least not on this particular point).  I will take all the engines' brute force calculations and all the GM and super-GM opinions-by-omission (in that not one of the 1500ish of them plays the Bird as a primary opening, though I do believe there is one or two IMs that champion it) as more authoritative than your premise.

A 2000+ player knows full well that f4 has a built-in disadvantage over e4/d4/c4.  The e1-h4 diagonal exposure is an issue the other 3 just don't have, at all.  Is it an issue that is worth a whopping 1/5th of a pawn?  Yes.  Yes it is.

All of chess history is also sitting in judgment here:  if f4 were as viable for white as e4/d4/c4, then where would be more than one named opening based on it wink.png .  So, the humans (past and present) have also spoken.  This is not a case of some opening just falling out of favor but being just as viable as others, it's a hard disadvantage that cannot be ignored or wheedled out of...small, but also rock solid and not dismissible.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#38

I disagree with you on principle. Not because my principle is to disagree with you but due to your inflexible thinking. Weakening the K's position with 1 f4 is bound to have more positives than negatives, therefore it's a small plus score. I think all your evaluations are skewed and incorrect.

Avatar of Optimissed
Optimissed
Feb 6, 2017
0
#39

And I hope you don't take that as an insult. But I think you're wrong and the reasons you've given show thinking that isn't based on what I would identify as good principles, so I'm going to have to disagree. Since you haven't given any examples, so that we can discuss what best play for both sides is and evaluate the resulting positions, it just seems as if you're basing your ideas on principles and those principles are unsound or incorrect.

Avatar of BronsteinPawn
BronsteinPawn
Feb 6, 2017
0
#40
urk escribió:
I think the Bird is actually worse than the Dutch Defense because the black d-pawn hasn't moved two squares.
Black plays a KID with ...e5 and has the easier game.

The only comment that makes sense.