is the Grunfeld for intermediates?
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nah... the exchange variation will captivate every one
chessrva163 wrote:
nah... the exchange variation will captivate every one
yeh ....
bong711 wrote:
At patzer level, Gruenfeld scores. I tried KID, QID and NID with less satisfaction. the Gruenfeld gives me 60%. QG is too boring for me.
You should have tried BID too. 
nighteyes1234 wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
Black is already tempo down due to the fact he is the second player, black commited couple of slight inaccuracies, on above diagram, white has central advanced d for semi-edge b black pawn, nice compact center, etc. In conclusion, big advantage, black could hold by a miracle.
Again, that is with perfect play. As said, top engines at very long TC win 70-80% of the games with white in this particular line.
So that, I would not play the Gruenfeld, the KID yes, but it very much depends on one's individual style, of course.
For the pattern approach, you might want to check this article: https://www.chess.com/blog/Swordfish55/review-the-secret-of-chess
Paradoxical, is not it?
Now, tell me modern chess/theory is very advanced.
...g6:
- fiacnhettoes the black dark-square bishop on the long diagonal, it attacks 6 different squares there
- it atacks the center
- the black light-square bishop is not hemmed in after e7-e6, and ready to trade on either f3 or d3/f5, leaving black with a good bishops vs white's bad c1 bishop, etc.
All those advantages easily decide 3...g6 is the best move above, but why do modern theoreticians not see it? Because they don't use patterns sufficiently, in any case advanced patterns.
In that way, everybody learns the wrong way to play. You really think that is good?
LOL...they must sell a lot of those phony baloney sandwiches at that deli you go to.
Well, he traded his strong d5 pawn for opponent weak e6 one with 15. de6?(?)
Not to mention other errors.
What would you expect then?
BID == ?
BID = Bogo Indian Defense. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Bb4 . I find this defense ugly so never tried it. And I score about 65% against it. I prefer and recommend QID if 3. Nf3. The BID is rarely played by super GMs nowadays
bong711 wrote:
At patzer level, Gruenfeld scores. I tried KID, QID and NID with less satisfaction. the Gruenfeld gives me 60%. QG is too boring for me.
You will never be a good chess player. You can't let boring positions get in the way of your game!
I've seen it all. The super boring to the ultra chaotic and everywhere in between! To just flat out rule out a complete opening complex because of boredom? Explains why you are only 1700!
Indeed, chess is too complex to get bored.
But then, Nezhmetdinov had a 4-0 score against Tal.
@thrillerfan I play chess to fight boredom. I don't mind playing QG as white. As black, boring.
Many experts and masters say Sicilian should not be played by nonexperts, Gruenfeld is too complex and so on. That's why I love Sicilians and Gruenfeld. If I wait till expert level, I might not play them at all. And miss all the fun.
That is a good approach!
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
Unless you are Fischer or Kasparov, forget all about the Gruenfeld.
This opening is weak, it scores very badly at top engine 3300 level competition, white wins too many games, better learn and play the KID, which is much sounder.
Kasparov and Fischer played the Gruenfeld, but just rarely. they both preferred the KID.
What exactly are those win percentages?
I find it very difficult to believe that the Grunfeld is bad. It has the reputation of being a top-tier response to d4 at the moment, played by Carlsen, Caruana, Svidler, etc.
Meanwhile, the KID seems to be considered to be bad at the top level, unless it is played against an anti-Grunfeld line. Even Nakamura seems to have more-or-less given it up.
In an interview, in regards to a game against Nakamura, Carlsen says, "If he had wanted a worse position, he would have played the King’s Indian." This suggests that the KID is not so great from an objective standpoint. https://www.chess.com/news/view/carlsen-wins-2017-chess-com-isle-of-man-international . Please see https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/is-the-kings-indian-defense-bad .
Kramnik had a very good score against the KID. I think in an interview after beating Nakamura's KID, he said that the KID seems to be slightly unsound, due to white being allowed to get in c4, d4, and e4 so easily.
Combined with the Grunfeld's very strong reputation, this suggests that the Grunfeld is simply a better opening than the KID and should be preferred. But you suggest the exact opposite, claiming that the Grunfeld is horrible and that the KID is sound. How can you justify this claim? The top level GMs seem to disagree with you.
Hello.
You haven't read my latest book, right: https://www.amazon.com/Fine-Art-Chess-Lyudmil-Tsvetkov-ebook/dp/B07SPFTJSZ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=fine+art+chess&qid=1561958676&s=digital-text&sr=1-1
Go to game 49 in the collection, Epishin-Polgar, where Judit dismantles her opponent with the KID.
You will find very detailed explanations as to why the KID is superior to the Grunfeld.
I have to point out 2 things, though, which are present in the book:
1) Indeed, as Kramnik claims, the KID is suboptimal for black with perfect play - white should play h3, g4, to stop ...f7-f5, and then castle long, away from the pointed pawn chain, that could arise after black entrenches a pawn at f4, c7-d6-e5-f4.
This arrangement might be even altogether won for white.
2) If white misses out on such a setup, and black plays ...f7-f5, the position is at least fuly equal, maybe even black holds small edge. In case white allows ...f5-f4 thrust, with aforementioned pointed pawn chain restricting white, black gets big advantage, soon maybe even winning.
As no one practically plays 0-0-0 in the KID, black usually has very nice chances.
Anti-KIDs are no good.
The Saemisch, 5. f3, is purely defensive in nature, white upholds the e4-point anticipating ...f7-f5.
Black easily gets fully equal, and the way to do that is again described in my book.
The fact the KID doesn't enjoy good prestige at the moment is due to the lack of players able to implement it adequately.
Where is Kasparov? Where is Fischer?
The KID is very deep and not everybody can handle it adequately.
Concerning the Grunfeld, well, top engine competitions at the 3300 level exhibit 85% score in favour of white - only white wins with some draws in the mix.
Draw the conclusion yourselves.
The opening is very suitable for engines, please note, as of relatively open character.
The Classical Variation, building a strong pawn center, grants white huge advantage.
It's patterns at play again, rather than concrete variations.
More on the Grunfeld also in my new book, lol.
By the way, my new book dismantles almost all modern opening conceptions.
For example, one claim runs the Dutch is nearly unplayable, due to 1. d4 f5?! 2. d5!, with sizeable white edge.
Black can hold his own quite well in the Dutch Stonewall after a transposition from the QGD, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 f5! etc.
The Stonewall itself is very good, fully equal, but the rest of the Dutch lines far from being so.
As said, almost all of modern opening conceptions are fully wrong.
I'll have to buy the book then!
The Grunfeld is very theory-heavy, and all so that Black can end up with an equal position out of the opening. At club level, it's rarely worth the time and effort learning all that theory when there are easier openings that also get you a decent position.
Utopia321 wrote:
I'll have to buy the book then!
You really still haven't bought?
Lol, Amazon is almost out of stock.
Seriously, there is a lot of opening research included.
andrewnox wrote:
The Grunfeld is very theory-heavy, and all so that Black can end up with an equal position out of the opening. At club level, it's rarely worth the time and effort learning all that theory when there are easier openings that also get you a decent position.
Not that equal: in the mainlines, Stockfish score rarely descends below 70 centipawns, in an environment the engine perfectly understands.
Things can also get confusing for black if white plays a dreaded fianchetto setup with his king's bishop , delaying the e4 advance a little or more.