Obviously my hint was too subtle for you two, so maybe this will work: Quit the discussion, it's getting annoying. Stop trying to get the final word, or it'll go on forever.
Summary: The Traxler isn't good for Black at all after 5.Bxf7, though several other lines work well against it as well. End of discussion.
"Given so much incorrectness, the
Traxler Gambit should be regarded
as unplayable. When it
will ever be reduced to a footnote
in the theory books of the future,
that note might read approximately
like: “4...Ãc5? 5.Àf7!
Ãf2 6.®f1! ©e7 7.Àh8 d5 8.ed5
Àd4 9.d6 cd6 10.®f2 d5
11.Ãe2ê De Zeeuw”. But in
the history of Traxler theory so
many mistakes have been made,
that even regarding this one cannot
be fully sure."
Quit the discussion, it's getting annoying.
#m
sorry but i dont want this thread to end
"Given so much incorrectness, the
Traxler Gambit should be regarded
as unplayable. When it
will ever be reduced to a footnote
in the theory books of the future,
that note might read approximately
like: “4...Ãc5? 5.Àf7!
Ãf2 6.®f1! ©e7 7.Àh8 d5 8.ed5
Àd4 9.d6 cd6 10.®f2 d5
11.Ãe2ê De Zeeuw”. But in
the history of Traxler theory so
many mistakes have been made,
that even regarding this one cannot
be fully sure."
De Zeeuw's analyses are flawed in almost all variations.
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1283315840
Given so much incorrectness, it's obvious that
1. His analyses should be mentioned with a barrel of salt handy.
2. Trying to refute the opening by 5.Nxf7 is silly- Black is OK in all lines.
3. Given the complexity of the position, and the bogus evaluations by enghines and experts, one playing white should adopt the KISS principle as soon as possible.
4. Neglected continuations, such as 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bc4!? should be taken quite seriously- Black has no clear way to prove compensation, and such lines are an excellent way to get "out of the book" as white, and maintain fair winning chances.
I agree with your first three points completely pfren.
As to 5.Bxf7+; 6.Bc4, I felt that when it was analysed in our group, it had some very dangerous lines if black was not careful and allowing a b4 strike, but comparatively to the other two variations, it did not offer as much of an advantage due to the bishop being at an exposed square while not providing pressure on the c6 knight. I would also like to note that I am surprised that more people do not try to go down the 5.d4 with the problems it creates for black. But I also realize that most people just slap down the move with the most play in a database or one that the books just slap an positive evaluation and leave it be.
The only good plan is the Bg4-Qh5-Nd4 light square kingside pressure, but even that doesn't give complete compensation against the 5.Bxf7+ lines.
I am under the impression the whole idea with 8...h6 just doesn't work as black needs one more tempo. Actually it reminds me of the line 7.0-0 d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nh7 which shows that normal looking tries can just outright lose for black. I think that the immediate 7.Nc3 is even more damning for black. The only way to improve is to go back to the 6..Rf8 move which was the problem in the other 5.Bxf7+ lines and try something else or transpose into something better.
6...Qf8 is an idea I wanted to work, but had a problem line I could not solve.
6…Qf8 7.0-0 d6 8.Nc3 Bg4 9.Nd5+ Kd8 10.Nxf6 Bxd1 11.Ne6+ Ke7 12.Nxf8 gxf6 13.Rxd1 Raxf8 14.d3 Na5 and white is a solid pawn up.
Maybe you could try 9...Kd8 to improve on your game pfren to avoid the check. I don't think it is full compensation, but I don't think I can ask for much as black. Like you said, the Be2 interposition is actually quite problematic to black's light square bind idea.
I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED
P.s. those games are very instructive!
I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED
I think if anyone that plays 3.Nf6 should reaserch more about the Ng5 line since there a couple of siedlines.
I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED
I would like to remind everyone that THIS FORUM IS CLOSED
P.s. those games are very instructive!
OK, Then:
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/traxler---5-bxf7
It is quite challenge for black to prove sufficient compensation for black, but IMO it is there. However, I must add that almost everyone played 5. Nxf7 in my games (before I switched to French).
